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Author Topic:   Phat Unplugged
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 31 of 69 (887224)
07-26-2021 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
04-24-2020 3:54 PM


Re: Phats Online Diary Unplugged
GDR writes:

I don't want to be the last Christian standing around here.

So are you ok? I and everyone here sure hope so. I just noticed how long you have been gone!!! Do at least let us know you are ok, we understand if you are too busy to post.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GDR, posted 04-24-2020 3:54 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 07-26-2021 1:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 32 of 69 (887229)
07-26-2021 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
07-26-2021 3:50 AM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
This IQ thing seems to be a bit of a chip-on-the-shoulder thing for a lot of fundie posters here. Mike the Waz is very fond of pronouncing his cleverness. I presume he does that because it's hard to guess from his posts.

Believers are probably as intelligent on average as the general population, though atheists tend to be above average. You're not particularly smart Phat so don't get carried away with yourself. But it's not IQ that's your problem; it's your thinking skills - they're generally absent.

One of the most evidence-driven people I ever met was Professor Sir Anthony Bottoms (yes, really!)' professor of criminology at Cambridge University. Speaking to him was an intellectual minefield, he had a mind like a trap and you had to weigh up every word you said to him and justify your assertions with supporting evidence. A very, very clever man.

But he was also a believer and he threw every rational thought away when it came to his beliefs. I could tie him up in knots without breaking into a sweat. Very odd. He compartmentalised his belief from his rational mind..

I'll bet the farm that I'm right about the gold and silver and an eventual dollar collapse within ten years. As for Jesus? He loves you even if you don't believe in Him and He is still working on me. [/end lecture]

If you had a farm I'd take the bet. You guys are ALWAYS wrong with your doom, doom, doom.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 3:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 33 of 69 (887230)
07-26-2021 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
07-26-2021 3:52 AM


Re: Getting Plugged Back In
Phat writes:

It says just what you always say. It emphasizes both the message and the messenger. Got any problems with it, oh Saskatchewanian Contrarian?


I don't emphasize the messenger. There are a thousand messengers.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 3:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:26 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 34 of 69 (887231)
07-26-2021 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
07-26-2021 3:50 AM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
Phat writes:

... the main species on this planet (humans)...


Wrong.

Phat writes:

... I'll bet the farm that I'm right about the gold and silver and an eventual dollar collapse within ten years.


You really won't though, will you? You're too enamored of your little pile of money to risk it on anything - not even on doing what your "savior" tells you to do.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 3:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:35 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 35 of 69 (887233)
07-26-2021 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
07-26-2021 3:58 AM


Re: Phats Online Diary Unplugged
Thanks for asking Phat. I’m doing well as I hope everyone there is as well. I just found that in most instances the anti-theist side of the debate was more about the labelling of and the ridicule of theistic beliefs. I just didn’t see the point of trying to make an argument for my views.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 3:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nwr, posted 07-26-2021 1:11 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5793
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 36 of 69 (887234)
07-26-2021 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by GDR
07-26-2021 1:01 PM


Re: Phats Online Diary Unplugged
I just didn’t see the point of trying to make an argument for my views.

I don't have a problem with your views. You are a reasonably rational theist, which is more than we can say for many of the other theists who post here.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by GDR, posted 07-26-2021 1:01 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 37 of 69 (887235)
07-26-2021 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
07-26-2021 12:13 PM


Re: Getting Plugged Back In
ringo writes:

I don't emphasize the messenger. There are a thousand messengers.

So? There are a thousand Basketball players but only one Michael Jordan. There are a thousand Hockey Players but only one Bobby Orr. Or Wayne Gretsky. Or Gordie Howe. To put it in human terms, Jesus was the Wayne Gretsky of Messengers. And he delivered his message as near perfect as a human could do on the ice.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 12:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 1:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 38 of 69 (887236)
07-26-2021 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
07-26-2021 12:20 PM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
Ahhh I see where you are going! Thanks a lot, ringo...you really DO get me to think. (once in a while) If I hear you correctly, you are telling me that if I really DID have the guts to "bet the farm" I would sell everything I have and invest it in helping others just as Jesus told me to do. In fact, my conscience just now gave me a scripture:

Matthew 13:45-46 NKJV writes:

45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, 46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it

For an agnostic, you sure have the Holy Spirit in you at times!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 12:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 1:40 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 39 of 69 (887237)
07-26-2021 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
07-26-2021 1:26 PM


Re: Getting Plugged Back In
Phat writes:

So? There are a thousand Basketball players but only one Michael Jordan.


Exactly my point. Basketball would be the same with or without Michael Jordan.

Phat writes:

There are a thousand Hockey Players but only one Bobby Orr. Or Wayne Gretsky. Or Gordie Howe.


See above.

Phat writes:

To put it in human terms, Jesus was the Wayne Gretsky of Messengers.


Or maybe the Fred Sasakamoose of hockey - i.e. a player you've never heard of.

Phat writes:

And he delivered his message as near perfect as a human could do on the ice.


So why do you reject His message?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:26 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 40 of 69 (887238)
07-26-2021 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
07-26-2021 1:35 PM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
Phat writes:

For an agnostic, you sure have the Holy Spirit in you at times!


Nope. I work without a net.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 41 of 69 (887239)
07-26-2021 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
07-26-2021 12:09 PM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
Tangle writes:

One of the most evidence-driven people I ever met was Professor Sir Anthony Bottoms (...)Speaking to him was an intellectual minefield, he had a mind like a trap and you had to weigh up every word you said to him and justify your assertions with supporting evidence. A very, very clever man.(Yet) he threw every rational thought away when it came to his beliefs. I could tie him up in knots without breaking into a sweat. Very odd.

Very odd indeed. Why is it that the Jesus in the book was usually the one tieing everyone else up in knots and getting them to think whereas nearly all of His followers themselves get tied up in knots when confronting a rationally minded man? We can ponder one scripture in regards to my comment:

Matthew22:34-40 writes:

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

I would think that you would argue back and say that the second commandment is the important one and the first one is mythos. It would be interesting which of you would tie the other up in a knot at that point. Comments?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2021 12:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 07-26-2021 2:12 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 42 of 69 (887240)
07-26-2021 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
07-26-2021 1:40 PM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
Nope. I work without a net.
Not sure I follow. Are you referring to the fishermen analogy where the nets were breaking and the apologetic point that He makes us fishers of men? Are you implying that you seek to catch and hold no fish but merely give them spare change and let them swim on their way?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 1:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 2:03 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19233
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 43 of 69 (887241)
07-26-2021 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
07-26-2021 1:57 PM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Nope. I work without a net.


Not sure I follow. Are you referring to the fishermen analogy where the nets were breaking and the apologetic point that He makes us fishers of men?

Nope. The trapeze artist analogy with no safety net.

Phat writes:

Are you implying that you seek to catch and hold no fish but merely give them spare change and let them swim on their way?


You're over-thinking it, trying to come up with a convoluted apologetic explanation for a simple phrase.

(By the way, you could have googled it.)


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 2:19 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 44 of 69 (887242)
07-26-2021 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
07-26-2021 1:53 PM


Re: Untangling a bored fisherman
Phat writes:

Why is it that the Jesus in the book was usually the one tieing everyone else up in knots and getting them to think whereas nearly all of His followers themselves get tied up in knots when confronting a rationally minded man?

Because the authors of the myth made it that way. You can't portray an idiot Jesus and hope to get people to believe in him can you? He has to be a superhero.

I would think that you would argue back and say that the second commandment is the important one and the first one is mythos. It would be interesting which of you would tie the other up in a knot at that point.

I could tie him up in knots because he hadn't made any attempt at all to research the historicity and accuracy of the bible, something he wouldn't dream of not doing in his own subject area. He just swallowed the thing whole.

As for your question, of course the first part is total nonsense and the second part is simply plagiarism (of the golden rule).


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 07-26-2021 1:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 07-29-2021 2:23 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15609
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 45 of 69 (887243)
07-26-2021 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
07-26-2021 2:03 PM


Working Without A Net
(By the way, you could have googled it.)
Thanks for the tip.

Ignoring most of the references, I was led to a Waylon Jennings Song. Here are the lyrics. See if you can relate.

quote:
Well the road can be a circus, a death-defying act
But the clowns don't come around no more since the monkeys off my back
I stand here on the stage, as the house lights fade to black
Your love helps me forget, I'm working without a net
Up on the high wire, I hear the crowd begin to call
Some want you to fly, some want to see you fall
Now and then I stumble, but I ain't fallen yet
Your love helps me forget, I'm working without a net
I used to depend on some things I did not need
I leaned on some crutches that kept me off my feet
Standing here without them now, well it scares me half to death
Your love helps me forget, I'm working without a net
Up on the high wire, I hear the crowd begin to call
Some want you to fly, some want to see you fall
Now and then I stumble, but I ain't fallen yet
Your love helps me forget, I'm working without a net
Up on the high wire, I hear the crowd begin to call
Some want you to fly, some want to see you fall
Now and then I stumble, but I ain't fallen yet
Your love helps me forget, I'm working without a net

Let's speculate a minute.
1) Whose love was the artist referring to? If a human, which human? (You know where I'm going! )
2) Would you personally see where the crutches he was leaning on were organized religion? (see how our intuition works? )
3) I see the Holy Spirit all through this song. You may not like Waylon Jennings but perhaps you can see what I mean.

Otherwise, which google would you have used?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 2:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ringo, posted 07-26-2021 8:46 PM Phat has responded

  
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