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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musing
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1970
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 105 (887711)
08-21-2021 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
08-20-2021 11:55 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
What was the force and/or field that WAS SAID to fuel the expansion of space , in, say, 1991? What was it? Was it momentum from the Big Bang?

We know about Dark Energy, now.

( And the scientific community was universally wrong to say that the expansion of space was slowing down, when in fact it was speeding up by leaps and bounds)

(I will limit my response to this issue, for now)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2021 11:55 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 12:28 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1970
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 32 of 105 (887712)
08-21-2021 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
08-20-2021 11:55 PM


Does Dark Energy enlarge an atom?
Keep this issue here, in a separate sub_discussion within this thread.

Explain yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2021 11:55 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6032
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 33 of 105 (887713)
08-21-2021 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by LamarkNewAge
08-21-2021 12:04 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
And the scientific community was universally wrong to say that the expansion of space was slowing down, when in fact it was speeding up by leaps and bounds

And once the consensus was that the Milky Way was the full extent of the universe.

It wasn't. We learned more and changed our view. Science does that every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

So you are upset that science did not see the unknown coming.

Explain yourself.

About what?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-21-2021 12:04 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-21-2021 12:40 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1970
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 34 of 105 (887714)
08-21-2021 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 12:28 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
You combined my two separate issues, in a single response, which I told you not to do.

The "explain yourself" was about your statement that Dark Energy is beginning to rip atoms apart. I suppose the question will come here.

Question:

Since atoms already have much space within themselves, then what is Dark Energy doing to that space? What known force is competing with the Dark Energy "force" (if that is what it is, as opposed to a field)?

Is an atom actually enlarged, via Dark Energy, or is it simply moving around in a larger volume of space, while it remains the same size?

Are you answers snd/or statements universally considered certain?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 12:28 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 1:59 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6032
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 35 of 105 (887715)
08-21-2021 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by LamarkNewAge
08-21-2021 12:40 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
You combined my two separate issues, in a single response, which I told you not to do.

Just to start out on the right foot, I really don't give a flyin' fuck what you "told" me to do.

The "explain yourself" was about your statement that Dark Energy is beginning to rip atoms apart.

Reading comprehension problem. Re-read what I wrote. I never said Dark Energy is beginning to rip atoms apart.

Though the Big Rip - Wikipedia is an interesting hypothesis that posits exactly that.

Dark energy is hypothesised to be a property of the vacuum energy of space. Every cubic planck length of space everywhere in the universe, so the story goes, is expanding.

The other four forces are, presently anyway, strong enough to counter that expansion so that, yes in your example, the space within the atoms, between the electrons, between the quarks, everywhere, all of it, is expanding but the nuclear forces and the EM force keep the atom intact right where she stands. Space expands in and around the atom without the atom altered to any extent.

Since atoms already have much space within themselves, then what is Dark Energy doing to that space? What known force is competing with the Dark Energy "force" (if that is what it is, as opposed to a field)?

Learn your physics. Force (energy) is the length of a spacetime 4-vector in the time direction. Which means in quantum mechanics energy is a vibration in the various quantum fields mediated by specific elementary force carriers (bosons).

These forces and the particles they interact with exist in the fabric of a spacetime under a mathematical model we call a Minkowski space. All that means is it's a 3-D spacetime with the math of relativity laid in.

This describes our universe. The ΛCDM model.

In this description dark energy is not mediated by an actual particle, we don't think, and cannot be separated from any volume of space. It is an intrinsic property of space. There are a number of hypotheses on how the mechanism is supposed to work but none of them involve disturbing anything made with particles from our Standard Model.

If the force of dark energy, the cosmological constant, H0, increases over time the Big Rip posits it could expand so fast and explosively that even the fundamental forces could not hold the expansion pressure at bay and everything including the nucleus of atoms would disintegrate.

Most see this proposal as highly unlikely but it is possible, so says the math in our model.

Are you answers snd/or statements universally considered certain?

You don't understand science very well, do you. Nothing is ever certain. Always pending further data.

What I've been posting is my best recollection and (lazy) research on the present state of our knowledge. Some details may be fuzzy but this is, in general, the way I understand we see it today.

I expect to be corrected, but certainly not by you.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-21-2021 12:40 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-21-2021 2:42 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 37 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-21-2021 3:06 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1970
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 36 of 105 (887716)
08-21-2021 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 1:59 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Earlier, you were asked whether Dark Energy affected Dark Matter and Baryonic Matter in a different way. You then went on to talk about how it pulled space the same everywhere.

You then said, just now, that it was probably an unchanging force, right?

But earlier, I made mention of the pre-Dark Energy discovery period, which considered the entirely of matter and space to be potentially able to close back to a singularity. So the expansion of space was tied to a theory that matter could be pushed together as the whole of space in the universe shrunk.

That possibility might be disproved, due to the discovery of Dark Energy, but you still have the (nearly) same history of the Universe starting with an explosion of space, which (due to whatever various inflationary forces separated the 4 known forces of nature - starting with gravity), and forced the later clumps of matter to separate ( but not the individual quarks, later atoms, etc.).

Back to your response.

You say you were just talking about space being created everywhere. But the initial question, from another, was about the knowledge that Dark Matter( probably full of it's own particles) contributes to gravity ( do you feel gravity has a field particle?) and whether Dark Energy has a different repulsive force on that type of combo.

You now want to say that you never intended to imply that Dark Energy did anything but create/expand space. It is all about Gravity and Dark Energy? Just 2 forces?

I guess I will just say, in the form of a question, "Just what Do particles have to do with it?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 1:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 3:55 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1970
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 37 of 105 (887718)
08-21-2021 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 1:59 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
I still have a problem with the idea that concentrated matter ( like our Earth and atmosphere) does not counter the creation of space. I feel that space expansion can hypothetically be static. I just don't see why (local) matter does not stop it completely (in its neck of the woods)

Why am I wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 1:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 4:03 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6032
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 38 of 105 (887721)
08-21-2021 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by LamarkNewAge
08-21-2021 2:42 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Earlier, you were asked whether Dark Energy affected Dark Matter and Baryonic Matter in a different way. You then went on to talk about how it pulled space the same everywhere.

Wow, your reading comprehension is bad.

Dark energy has no effect on matter, any matter as far as I can tell, other than to separate it further in space if that matter is already separated to the extent that the gravitational field is too weak to negate the expansion.

And, no, dark energy doesn’t pull anything. It pushes. It pushes on every spot in space to expand that space in every direction.

You then said, just now, that it was probably an unchanging force, right?

No. Never said anything about any unchanging force. I talked about one proposal that posits catastrophic change (Big Rip). There are others where the hypothesized H0 changes not all that much. But, Lamark, I never mentioned any unchanging force.

But earlier, I made mention of the pre-Dark Energy discovery period, which considered the entirely of matter and space to be potentially able to close back to a singularity. So the expansion of space was tied to a theory that matter could be pushed together as the whole of space in the universe shrunk.

That is still a very plausible scenario. If H0 peaks then subsides over time then a Big Crunch - Wikipedia may be in the cards.

You say you were just talking about space being created everywhere.

And so it is.

But the initial question, from another, was about the knowledge that Dark Matter( probably full of it's own particles) contributes to gravity ( do you feel gravity has a field particle?) and whether Dark Energy has a different repulsive force on that type of combo.

Tanypteryx’s questions in his Message 27 had to do with both dark matter and dark energy. So, I answered both.

Is there a problem in that?

You now want to say that you never intended to imply that Dark Energy did anything but create/expand space. It is all about Gravity and Dark Energy? Just 2 forces?

What are you going on about? Gravity and dark energy are the topic of the discussion.

So “It is all about Gravity and Dark Energy? Just 2 forces?”

Yeah, that is what this discussion centered on.

Of course dark energy expands space. Well, something is, we just call it dark energy because we don’t know squat about what’s happening ‘cept that space is expanding.

Look. Let me make this clear for your reading comprehension problem.

Dark energy makes space expand. All of it. Everywhere. All the time. It has no effect on matter as long as that matter is under a strong enough gravitational field. That’s it. That’s all we know about it.

Dark matter makes gravity. Don’t ask how. Take your pick. Either warps in spacetime or the interaction of gravitons in a quantum field. It doesn’t seem to react to EM so we can’t see it. We only see the gravity field. That’s it. That’s all we know about it.

I guess I will just say, in the form of a question, "Just what Do particles have to do with it?"

Uhh, everything. We can’t talk energy, matter, dark, baryonic or anything else without particles.

What do you think we’re talking about?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-21-2021 2:42 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 1:49 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6032
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 39 of 105 (887722)
08-21-2021 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by LamarkNewAge
08-21-2021 3:06 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
I still have a problem with the idea that concentrated matter ( like our Earth and atmosphere) does not counter the creation of space. I feel that space expansion can hypothetically be static. I just don't see why (local) matter does not stop it completely (in its neck of the woods)

Why am I wrong?

Why should concentrated matter be a stop to spatial expansion? Your concentrated matter is composed mostly of empty space already. What's to stop that space from expanding?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-21-2021 3:06 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1970
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 40 of 105 (887803)
08-22-2021 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 3:55 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
What is the observational evidence that Dark Energy is constantly creating space between you and me?

I found, and then, lost a site that has scientists challenging that assumption.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 3:55 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 08-22-2021 2:59 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 3:00 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20334
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 41 of 105 (887806)
08-22-2021 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 1:49 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
LamarkNewAge writes:

What is the observational evidence that Dark Energy is constantly creating space between you and me?

This has been explained previously, but once again, the term dark energy arose as a placeholder label for the cause of the accelerating expansion of the universe, which was discovered through observational evidence. Other than the observational evidence of its effects, nothing is known of dark energy. It might be a constant energy pervading all space, or it might vary across time and space, or it might be something else. We don't know at this time.

The specific observational evidence and subsequent analysis demonstrating the likelihood of an accelerating expansion of the universe originally came from two studies, the High-Z Supernova Search Team and the Supernova Cosmology Project.

I found, and then, lost a site that has scientists challenging that assumption.

There are no assumptions. What are you referring to?*

You will have no trouble finding sites on the Internet challenging absolutely anything. Don't believe in a spherical Earth, just go here: The Flat Earth Society. Don't believe in the moon landings, just go here: Astronauts Gone Wild. Don't believe airplanes brought down the World Trade Center, just go here: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories. Don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald short JFK, just go here: John F. Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy Theories.

And last but not least, if you don't believe in dark energy, just go here: It’s Over: Dark Energy Was Fake Science – CEH

--Percy

ABE: *After seeing AZPaul3's Message 42 I realized that LamarkNewAge might be referring to the assumption that the accelerating expansion we observe at great distances is also taking place locally.

Edited by Percy, : AbE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 1:49 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6032
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 42 of 105 (887807)
08-22-2021 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 1:49 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
What is the observational evidence that Dark Energy is constantly creating space between you and me?

First, the expansion is only significant at large scales. If I have my sums right the spatial expansion in each cubic kilometer of our local space, in theory in all of space, is on the order of 0.00007 mm per year. I don't think we have the technology to measure this. At 3,250,000 LY distance that (should) equal about 70 km/s.

Second, it's a logical extension of the cosmological principle. We here in this space is nowhere special and thus the vacuum pressure seen in space 3,250,000 LY away, which we can measure, is the same and contains the same properties as the space over here.

Not to conflict with Percy, above, but the cosmological principle is an assumption. There is no logical reason nor evidence that this principle is violated by dark energy. To posit otherwise without evidence is like saying there is a different god to control the properties of each individual atom. I wouldn't put it past you to believe this.

We have evidence that reasonably extends dark energy vacuum pressure being an intrinsic property of space, all space, with no exceptions. Which reasonably makes the space between you and me also expand just like all of space everywhere.

How would you challenge this, other than personal incredulity?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 1:49 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 7:03 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 63 by Percy, posted 08-23-2021 9:25 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2584
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 43 of 105 (887809)
08-22-2021 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by AZPaul3
08-19-2021 10:51 PM


Re: Mapping the Universe’s Earliest Structures
The major issue with dark matter is it appears to not respond to any electromagnetic force. EM is the force that causes matter to clump. No EM no clump.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you talking about matter forming compounds with shared electrons or some other aspect of electromagnetic force, like magnets attract each other?

I was thinking of the clumping of matter due to gravitational attraction, like the extreme clumping we see in planets, stars, and black holes. Do you think dark matter can form black holes and/or is it more concentrated where we see mass concentrated?

I guess what I am asking is, is there an hypothesized explanation, for why dark matter, that we can only detect by how it gravitationally effects the stuff we can see, does not seem to form extreme concentrations of dark matter? Or does it, and I just misunderstood the descriptions?

We see two big lobes of gravity separated from their colliding galaxies. We know it’s there because of the gravitational lensing of objects in the background. Milky Way is hypothesized to be wrapped in a dark matter fog out to twice+ our visible stellar population.

What would keep it a fog? Why doesn't it become more concentrated by its own gravitational attraction?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2021 10:51 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 3:55 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6032
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 44 of 105 (887811)
08-22-2021 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tanypteryx
08-22-2021 3:14 PM


Re: Mapping the Universe’s Earliest Structures
Excellent questions. I hope I can do them justice.

Do you remember a demo done on the ISS with a bag of salt? Without any prompting the small grains would bump and stick together.

That is the electrostatic force that is causing the grains to adhere.

If dark matter is some kind of strange particle then it should react the same way and clump into larger structures like the salt in those baggies. But, apparently, dark matter does not react to EM forces so there is no electrostatic cling. That would mean the dark matter particles would be billiard balls banging into, not clinging, then bouncing off each other. Equal and opposite reaction stuff.

The gravitational attraction is too weak at that scale to keep the particles together.

Think a balloon of gas. The gravity may weakly draw some molecules together but being electrically neutral they do not adhere but only bounce off each other. Vibrational motion is an intrinsic property of all matter above 0oK. Dark matter is, we think, not just EM neutral but EM immune and will jitterbug all over the place without anything to slow them down. Can't keep a dust bunny together.

Also think this. Dark matter may be immune to gravity as well as EM. Dark matter may not be matter-like at all. May not be matter at all.

Does this help?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-22-2021 3:14 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-22-2021 4:00 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2584
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 45 of 105 (887814)
08-22-2021 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 3:55 PM


Re: Mapping the Universe’s Earliest Structures
Great answers, thanks so much!!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 3:55 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
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