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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musing
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 46 of 135 (887818)
08-22-2021 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 3:00 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Before the discovery of Dark Energy, we heard constantly about how just a tiny percentage of matter, as a ratio of the whole of space in the Universe, would literally be able to pull all of space back to a singularity.

A matter condensed region of the universe, like our Solar System ( and throw in our Galaxy, though it is less dense) is more than strong enough to counter Dark Energy, right? (Keep in mind that we dont even know if Dark Energy is a combined product from multiple inflationary factors, be they forces or fields)

I would ask you 2 questions, but you admitted that there was no observational evidence on Earth for local inflation.

Question 2 is whether there is any inflation of space observed in our Solar System.

Question 3 is whether there is evidence of spatial inflation, from Dark Energy or whatever else, in our galaxy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 3:00 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 7:34 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 56 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-22-2021 11:00 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 135 (887819)
08-22-2021 7:26 PM


19 June 2018 Physics World covers the scientists who point out the averaging problem.
The title of article is Dark Energy Deniers but the title is somewhat misleading.

The issue of the Cosmological Principle is mentioned.

There are scientists who feel that the expansion rate is inaccurately measured due to using averages that are taken from looking at the expansion in vast voids.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 8:49 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6076
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 48 of 135 (887821)
08-22-2021 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 7:03 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Answered in Message 42. Pay attention.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 7:03 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 8:03 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 50 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 8:06 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 49 of 135 (887822)
08-22-2021 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 7:34 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Repeat, since my post was short and targeted.

Your posts have been cluttered and misleading. You even seemed to bring religion into one recent post, unless I was mistaken.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 7:34 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 50 of 135 (887824)
08-22-2021 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 7:34 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Correction:

You not only brought religion into the discussion, but actually uttered "god" and then had the audacity to attribute it to me.

Despicable.

( yes, it was in post 42)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 7:34 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 8:19 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6076
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(2)
Message 51 of 135 (887825)
08-22-2021 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 8:06 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
actually uttered "god" ...

Yes I did ... in an analogy. Talk of religion bothers you?

... and then had the audacity to attribute it to me.

Did no such thing.

quote:
To posit otherwise without evidence is like saying there is a different god to control the properties of each individual atom. I wouldn't put it past you to believe this.

That attributes nothing to you. It questions your intellect.

Nuance doesn't occur to you, does it.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 8:06 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 9:13 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6076
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 52 of 135 (887826)
08-22-2021 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 7:26 PM


Re: 19 June 2018 Physics World covers the scientists who point out the averaging problem.
There are scientists who feel that the expansion rate is inaccurately measured due to using averages that are taken from looking at the expansion in vast voids.

Since we have two accurate (better than 5σ) measures of H0 and they differ and their error bars do not overlap, that right there tells you something is not quite kosher.

There are scientists that have questions about each measurement technique. And some question whether dark energy exists at all.

Until more information is available the consensus from the evidence we do have is that all of space is expanding everywhere at about 70 km/s/Mpc.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 7:26 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 9:17 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 53 of 135 (887827)
08-22-2021 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 8:19 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
So you went through all of these subtle slight of hands ( twisting my questions.twisting my words. then cluttering them), and you still are ducking the actual questions.

The questions are essentially whether or not we have actual evidence for expansion of space at the galaxy level ( and lower).

I know a direct answer to a direct question tends to trim 95% of words off your post, but that is your fault.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 8:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by xongsmith, posted 08-22-2021 10:37 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 64 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 9:51 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 54 of 135 (887828)
08-22-2021 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 8:49 PM


Re: 19 June 2018 Physics World covers the scientists who point out the averaging problem.
There is also the question of whether lumpy sections of the Universe see space expand like ithey do s in the vast void areas.

Back to the difference between space with particles and space without and the relative effects of the interaction with Dark Energy.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 8:49 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2091
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 55 of 135 (887829)
08-22-2021 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 9:13 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
LNA asks again:
essentially whether or not we have actual evidence for expansion of space at the galaxy level ( and lower).

Even one galaxy is too small for our sensors to measure this today. And even a local groups of galaxies, with their bobbing and weaving around, are too small. M31 in Andromeda is on a collision course with our Milky Way and the magnitude of that swamps out any space expansion. You need to go way further out.

Edited by xongsmith, : "on", not "pn"


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 9:13 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 12:55 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2615
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.0


(4)
Message 56 of 135 (887830)
08-22-2021 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 7:03 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Before the discovery of Dark Energy, we heard constantly about how just a tiny percentage of matter, as a ratio of the whole of space in the Universe, would literally be able to pull all of space back to a singularity.

I remember hearing dozens of hypotheses about every single aspect of how the Universe works and every aspect of cosmology, which is basically the same thing. I remember hearing hypotheses about what astrophysicists thought the effect would be on the expansion of the Universe with different proportions of matter. You seem to think there was a consensus, but there never was because we didn't have enough data. In science there are always scientists who question each other's work.

Scientists propose explanations for observations and everyone talks about them for a while and they turned every which way to see if they work. Sometimes they work and every time someone someone figures out a new way to test it their new data confirms it. Sometimes the observations start to look like their hypothesis is incomplete or even wrong.

If you only heard one thing constantly then you were listening to the wrong people.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 7:03 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 12:48 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 57 of 135 (887832)
08-23-2021 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tanypteryx
08-22-2021 11:00 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Plenty of solid equations showed that space was affected by matter. Even to this day, with Dark Energy thrown into the mix.

Matter causes gravity to kick in. It not only slows the creation of space, but it can stop it enough to make it static.

And enough matter, combined with other factors ( such as the factors involved in space expansion), can c as ise all of space to contract.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-22-2021 11:00 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-23-2021 1:04 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 58 of 135 (887833)
08-23-2021 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by xongsmith
08-22-2021 10:37 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Then the evidence for creation of space in our Galaxy weakens.

And it is really relevant to a Dark Energy discussion.

Even the very existence of Dark Energy is based on assumptions. The biggest one is whether gravity has been correctly understood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by xongsmith, posted 08-22-2021 10:37 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2615
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 59 of 135 (887834)
08-23-2021 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by LamarkNewAge
08-23-2021 12:48 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Plenty of solid equations showed that space was affected by matter. Even to this day, with Dark Energy thrown into the mix.

Yeah, you can't do any of this without math, but it also takes precision observations. Most of our observational power has been developed since then, covering the whole electromagnetic spectrum, plus gravitational waves.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2615
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.0


(2)
Message 60 of 135 (887835)
08-23-2021 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by LamarkNewAge
08-23-2021 12:55 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Even the very existence of Dark Energy is based on assumptions. The biggest one is whether gravity has been correctly understood.

You seem to be pissed off because there are limits to our knowledge. That's why we have dozens of new specialized telescopes and observing satellites coming on line. We're learning more all the time.

This is the golden age of astronomy!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 12:55 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by dwise1, posted 08-23-2021 2:35 AM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
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