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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musing
dwise1
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Posts: 4740
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(3)
Message 61 of 139 (887838)
08-23-2021 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Tanypteryx
08-23-2021 1:12 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Perhaps not my place to pipe in, but my take without having followed the whole matter with extreme diligence is a bit different. Most of the discussion as well as pooh-poohing (especially by the religiously-motivated anti-science forces as I have observed in the creationist community) sound as if Dark Matter and Dark Energy were something very definite albeit hypothetical.

I see them as place-holders. Kind of like imaginary numbers, which to my knowledge nobody can really define (ie, just what exactly is the square root of -1 when all real squares can only be positive ... kind of like the negative mass you would get when you surpass the speed of light). Or the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus (nearly half a century later, I could be a bit rusty about the actual name) in which you differentiate by taking the limit of Δy over Δx as Δx approaches zero (IOW, you're approaching dividing by zero (T-shirt quote: "Sure, it's all just fun and games until somebody divides by zero.")). In the case of Δx, you solve the problem by finding a way to factor the Δx out of the denominator. In the case of the square root of -1, you just keep track of those imaginary factors in the hopes of either eventually eliminating them or else have them indicate something very interesting and quite useful (eg, from my EE classes over 40 years ago, raising the natural base, e, to an imaginary power generates a sinusoidal waveform -- I've been meaning to get back around to relearning all that this past year-and-a-half).

Then I heard of Einstein having to resort to a factor, Λ, that he couldn't define but which he still needed in order to make the math work out. A place holder for some factor that he didn't know about, but which seemed to play a role (since without it the math would not work out).

That is how I tend to view Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Most of what we observe conforms to our understanding and yet there also things which we observe happening which we cannot account for. We don't know what it is, but we are able to work out the effects that it has. So we assume placeholder factors to account for those effects as we try to figure out what it is.

So whenever I heard any heated objections over whether Dark Matter or Dark Energy is real, I just tune them out since they don't understand the discussion. The effects that we ascribe to Dark Matter and Dark Energy are real. We just don't know what's actually causing those effects. Though at the same time we can do a proper job of describing what those effects are.

Like after Herschel had discovered Uranus through observation, astronomers started plotting its orbit and discovered anomalies in its position. The math for determining its orbit was correct as far as we knew, so either we would have to completely scrap and replace our knowledge of orbital mechanics or ... there was some external force causing those anomalies. On the basis of that latter hypothesis, the position of yet another planet, Neptune, was predicted through calculations and confirmed through astronomical observation. As the anomalies of Neptune's orbit similarly led to the discovery of Pluto.

And isn't that how scientific knowledge advances? We think we have it all figured out but then something doesn't quite fit. So we try to figure out what went wrong and we discover something else. I've heard and developed in my topic, So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY), that while religion offers "all the answers", the answers of science raise ever more questions which are the driving force and direction of further research; in science, an answer which raises no further questions is perhaps worse than useless (eg, the ID's favored "God of the Gaps" standard answer of "goddidit", which not only answers nothing but also blocks any further research into the matter).

Anyway, just a lay-person's handful of loose change.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 7:19 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 62 of 139 (887844)
08-23-2021 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by dwise1
08-23-2021 2:35 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Nobody, who accepts the Big Bang, denies that there have been inflationary forces (or fields), from the very beginning.

There is a majority of scientific opinion that accepts a very early inflation field that began and ended when the Universe was less than 1 second old.

What is today called Dark Energy is generally viewed as something unrelated to that earlier, and much stronger, field.

Today's Dark Energy is much weaker, in its repulsive push (verses matter) than the early inflation (the super early inflation is technically known as "inflation", while the later inflation is known ad Dark Energy.

The ironic thing is that today's "Dark Energy" could very well have existed from the very beginning and worked as a team with earlier inflation fields. In fact today's inflation ( Dark Energy!), by itself, is probably not strong enough to have separated matter, with the creation of space, in the first several million (or so) years of our Univers' existence.

We have no idea how many constituent (various inflation field) parts there are to the current expansion of space.

( Dark Energy is an interpretation of distant observations that were only recently discovered. The whole thing is on its infancy, and all admit that much more is known of Dark Matter than Dark Energy, though the knowledge EVEN THERE is ...well. fairly dark. No pun intended, but they named these thing "dark" due to the fact that they would be extremely difficult to get to the bottom of)


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
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Posts: 20400
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 63 of 139 (887847)
08-23-2021 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 3:00 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
AZPaul3 writes:

Not to conflict with Percy, above, but the cosmological principle is an assumption.

Calling the cosmological principle (the idea that on large scales the universe has the same properties for all observers) purely assumptive might be an example of an overabundance of scientific caution because we have more than zero evidence. When we compare our local large scale region with remote large scale regions, they appear approximately the same. This means these other large scale regions that we observe are also approximately the same as each other.

It's also consistent with what we observe on small scales, meaning that the physical laws we observe being followed locally are also being followed in all space that we observe. The structure of the universe on large scales is a reflection of all matter and energy following the same laws on tiny scales. For example, if the cosmological constant were different in the direction of Draco, that fact would stand out starkly when compared to observations made in the direction of Crux.

Science couldn't make progress if we insisted on hyperskepticality and held that, for example, just because the triple point of water is 0.01°C on one side of room, we can't assume that it will still be 0.01°C on the other side of the room.

Also, what would be the quality of our thinking if we abandoned generalization, concluding that because the triple point of water is 0.01°C everywhere we've measured it that therefore the triple point of water is 0.01°C everywhere. There's no denying the satisfaction of proving something true, but that kind of certainty is denied science. The best we can do is increase our confidence, but enough observations can make us very confident.

So sure, on a didactic level the cosmological principle may be an assumption, but it's a damn good one, and one that if it is false it is only, at least by current measurements, in very subtle ways that we haven't yet found.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 10:13 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 66 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 10:36 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 67 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 10:44 AM Percy has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6080
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 64 of 139 (887848)
08-23-2021 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by LamarkNewAge
08-22-2021 9:13 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
It is unnecessary to show a complete uninterrupted chain of fossils with none missing in order to establish a relationship between species. And it is unnecessary to have a chart of expansion readings from Boston to Andromeda to establish the universal properties of dark energy. This is especially so when there is no reason, no evidence, to suppose otherwise.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-22-2021 9:13 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 10:45 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 65 of 139 (887849)
08-23-2021 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
08-23-2021 9:25 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Where are Draco and Crux located?

You said we observe Dark Energy affects there?

Try and keep the response limited to my specific question.

( You already let Paul of Arizona confuse your interpretation of this entire discussion, so don't make you own slight of hand waves)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Percy, posted 08-23-2021 9:25 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 66 of 139 (887850)
08-23-2021 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
08-23-2021 9:25 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Just to avoid POTENTIAL slight of hand opportunities, I was able to find some work downtime to clarify that I know Percy was talking about observations in the space toward and around the stars in Crux, as well as Draco.

I understand what he said ( I dont have time to re read it right now), and I just want to see what he has to demonstrate his comment's background details.

Respond to all angles of the question, with integrity.

Crux is totally in the Milky Way, I think, so I am just wondering what directions, near Crux, show Dark Energy. I have no great preconceptions about the (coming) demonstration mind you.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 67 of 139 (887851)
08-23-2021 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Percy
08-23-2021 9:25 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
I just noticed something.

Did you really mean to say "cosmoligical constant" in the direction of Crux?

You might have meant Cosmological PRINCIPLE?

Answer my previous question, in any case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Percy, posted 08-23-2021 9:25 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 08-23-2021 5:22 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 68 of 139 (887852)
08-23-2021 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by AZPaul3
08-23-2021 9:51 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
I dont feel that Dark Energy necessarily creates space in any condensed part of the Universe.

You admit that the space cant be measured in our Galaxy while you propose that it is created inside our very bodies then just floats away.

(Ready for my words to be twisted)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 9:51 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 10:54 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6080
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 69 of 139 (887853)
08-23-2021 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by LamarkNewAge
08-23-2021 10:45 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Your objections are noted. They will not have much effect on the major cosmological community, however.

As for your words ... consider them twisted by reality into the universality of dark energy's properties across all of space, even the space between your ears.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 10:45 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 1:10 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 72 by Percy, posted 08-23-2021 5:14 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 70 of 139 (887857)
08-23-2021 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by AZPaul3
08-23-2021 10:54 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
But has the speeding up "visual signal" (my words) been from looking at space between galaxies?

I will get my words twisted but you remember the multiple Super Nova revelations from 1998. The visual observation of light indicated a speeding up of space.

Can you be certain that matter in galaxies, and the galaxie real estate itself, is subject to the expansion of space?

Has it been demonstrated.?

(I am not just talking about the Milky Way. Better make it clear that your distortions, if not rank dishonesty, are OVER on that one)

(And my initial comments, way back, should not have elicited such hostile & disruptive intrusions, from you, into the discussion)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 10:54 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6080
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 71 of 139 (887858)
08-23-2021 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by LamarkNewAge
08-23-2021 1:10 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
The effects of expansion are known and measured. Our measures, both of them, are in conflict. They give us different values. 67.66±0.42 km/s/Mpc from the Planck data (CMB analysis) and 74.03±1.42 from the supernova data.

This conflict has not been resolved.

Even with this conflict there are strong hypotheses on the proposed mechanism - the vacuum energy of space and quintessence.

In each hypothesis the proposed mechanism is universal to all space. There is nothing in these hypotheses to limit that expansion in the presence of any other objects or forces. Universality means all space everywhere.

There are others with different ideas but as a discipline those are our present hypotheses for dark energy. And as hypotheses they are, of course, subject to major revision in the light of further data.

You appear to dispute the universality of each of the proposed mechanisms.

What mechanism do you propose would halt such an expansion of the space at the tip of your nose? What mechanism do you propose would halt such an expansion of the space in an atom?

What evidence makes you believe such universality does not hold?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 1:10 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20400
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 72 of 139 (887860)
08-23-2021 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by AZPaul3
08-23-2021 10:54 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Replied in error.

Edited by Percy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 10:54 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20400
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 73 of 139 (887861)
08-23-2021 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by LamarkNewAge
08-23-2021 10:44 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
For some people more information leads to more questions, for others more confusion.

LamarkNewAge writes:

Where are Draco and Crux located?

For this context they are directions looking outward from Earth, not places.

You said we observe Dark Energy effects there?

No, I didn't say that.

Try and keep the response limited to my specific question.

Sure thing.

(You already let Paul of Arizona confuse your interpretation of this entire discussion, so don't make your own slight of hand waves)

Yeah, that's it, everyone's playing bait and switch with you, your comprehension is perfect.

Just to avoid POTENTIAL slight of hand opportunities, I was able to find some work downtime to clarify that I know Percy was talking about observations in the space toward and around the stars in Crux, as well as Draco.

Again, in this context, the stars of these constellations are used to indicate direction, not location. The particular locations of the stars that make up Crux and Draco are of no consequence. I chose these constellations simply because they are in approximately opposite directions so I could refer to regions of space as far from one another as possible.

Respond to all angles of the question, with integrity.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone's not out to get you.

Crux is totally in the Milky Way, I think, so I am just wondering what directions, near Crux, show Dark Energy. I have no great preconceptions about the (coming) demonstration mind you.

The focus of my post was the cosmological principle, not dark energy.

I just noticed something.

Did you really mean to say "cosmological constant" in the direction of Crux?

Yes, but I just chose something fundamental at random. A better choice might have been Planck's constant.

That paragraph was about the physical laws being the same everywhere we look in all directions. If the cosmological constant were different out in the direction of Draco (way beyond our galaxy and all the stars making up Draco) then we'd observe different physical laws out that way.

I don't know enough about the cosmological constant to be sure that a different value would result in different physical laws, which is why Planck's constant might have been a better choice, since I'm pretty sure if it had a different value then our physical laws would also be different.

You might have meant Cosmological PRINCIPLE?

No.

Answer my previous question, in any case.

Aye aye, sir.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 10:44 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2338
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 74 of 139 (887865)
08-24-2021 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by LamarkNewAge
08-23-2021 10:36 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Lamarknewage writes:

Crux is totally in the Milky Way, I think,

No shit, every star you see is part of the Milky Way or a satellite galaxy unless it is a supernova. Go ahead, try to resolve individual stars in Andromeda or Triangulum from the Earth. You're gonna need a bigger telescope.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-23-2021 10:36 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2016
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 75 of 139 (887882)
08-24-2021 10:13 PM


Dark Gravity means what to this discussion?
That's a question.

  
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