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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 526 of 794 (887885)
08-25-2021 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by PaulK
08-23-2021 12:16 PM


Re: Let us try a simpler analogy.
PaulK writes:
God made Lucifer in the full knowledge that by making Lucifer as he did, Lucifer would inevitably Fall with everything that would come with that. God could have made Lucifer differently, so he would have chosen otherwise. Because God created Lucifer in the full knowledge of everything Lucifer would do God made all those choices first, Lucifer’s choices are all the choices that God chose for him. Lucifer is just God’s puppet and so God - who made all the real choices - is responsible for Lucifer’s actions. Lucifer has no more agency than the bomb.
You have a good argument. I think that as we discuss these hypotheticals we should keep in mind first that I think much differently from most of you.
Namely...
  • I believe that GOD actually exists through Jesus Christ and is not simply a character in literature and an ever-evolving species. You tend to see God as many character metaphors originating from human development and awareness. So from the start, we have differing perspectives. And for the sake of argument I am not claiming to be right and you wrong, though I sometimes feel that you guys see me as wrong solely on the presumption that God(or a living Christ) IS in fact a human creation and that I and most other CCoI (Christian Culture Of Ignorance--a term jar and I once defined) are engaged in a collective fantasy.
  • When discussing GOD (Creator of all seen and unseen) hypothetically, your side maintains that such a Deity does in fact have full responsibility for everything that He creates. I would argue that while in a philosophical and moral sense this statement is true, we humans also have essentially been given a choice. If not, how could there be any solution except unbelief and getting on with life in the "real world"? And for a believer, that simply cannot be.
  • Hypothetically, this "War In Heaven" happened a long time ago...at least from an apologetic perspective. The whole Free Will paradox was settled by the angelic realm. Humans came along after that decision was settled. Thus...arguing in Lucifers defense is moot. Either there is in fact a spiritual war and human decision or the whole story and scenario is clearly made up. I believe the former and you believe the latter.
    To jars credit, his scenario concerning human choice based on empathy and works rather than religious bleating (Lord, Lord...) deserves a mention.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 525 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2021 12:16 PM PaulK has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 539 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 527 of 794 (887886)
    08-25-2021 2:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 524 by ringo
    08-23-2021 11:47 AM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    ringo writes:
    If you know something bad is going to happen and you do nothing to prevent it, you are evil. Period.
    So are you suggesting that God was responsible for Lucifer's decision to become autonomous? If so, how else could future civilizations
    be given a choice if there was only one door through which to go?
    And before you answer, I can almost hear one possible answer: "We have been given a choice. Our choice is to dismiss all such mythos as outdated thinking, march forward with our human-derived and originated science and evidence-based thinking, and make our own world in a responsible and myth-free way."
    Which sounds like something you or Tangle might vigorously agree with.
    And the only reason for us discussing these hypotheticals between religious and nonreligious thinking is that there are many many believers who will live in this world along with our children and the thinking processes and beliefs will continually clash.
    Ultimately whether or not God and Jesus are reality or myth, the effect of such beliefs will impact the future.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 524 by ringo, posted 08-23-2021 11:47 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 540 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:41 PM Phat has replied
     Message 544 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 528 of 794 (887887)
    08-25-2021 2:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 523 by AZPaul3
    08-23-2021 9:25 AM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    AZ writes:
    I’m suggesting the only proper thing for a God to do is to appear in public, admit it’s a charlatan, a fake, a carnie, and then disintegrate back into the void never to torment us again. But since it doesn’t exist we have the commission to spread the word to all the world ourselves.
    That sounds like something you would say. But were I a betting man, I would wager that at some level you believe in some form of hocus pocus and Majik that humans have that is ok to embrace. You are not strictly a nuts and bolts evidence-based science guy, from what I can tell.
    Had we known each other 40 years ago, we may well have been in a park, high on LSD or Magic Mushrooms having these very same discussions.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 523 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 9:25 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 532 by AZPaul3, posted 08-25-2021 3:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 529 of 794 (887888)
    08-25-2021 2:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 522 by jar
    08-23-2021 6:51 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    jar writes:
    The issue is not whether or not God has foreknowledge but rather with what a God that does have foreknowledge does; about Gods behavior.
    Yes, I understand your position to a degree. The decision about how to act and behave, however, is a human decision in the timeframe that we are alive. One could later hypothetically argue (as they are burning in hell's fiery flames) that God foreknew that they would end up in such a predicament and that He is thus evil, fully responsible, and negligent. My question to such an individual was I able to speak with them before their roast is this:
  • Did you ever have a fair choice? Why or why not?
  • Is God fully responsible for what has happened to you? Why?
    Let's say you could speak on behalf of such an individual who was hypothetically headed for hell at some future date. Would it really matter whether God knew the outcome if, in fact, the individual had plenty of time to choose his path more wisely?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 522 by jar, posted 08-23-2021 6:51 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 533 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 6:55 AM Phat has replied
     Message 541 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:45 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 530 of 794 (887889)
    08-25-2021 2:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 519 by PaulK
    08-23-2021 2:55 AM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    PaulK writes:
    First, unless you argue that God did not know in advance that Satan would fall, your talk of “possibilities” is just an attempt at deception.
    Second, your point as quoted above doesn’t even make sense. Indeed, unless you deny God’s absolute foreknowledge there is no “freedom to rebel”. If we are locked into following God’s plan it isn’t freedom and no true rebellion is possible.
    Argument noted. I think I will argue that in the hypothetical, at the point of the initial "war in heaven" and angelic rebellion, God would have had to have not known the outcome but rather simply had allowed the possibility. My argument may not be as definite concerning human destiny. The sides have been chosen before the first human was born. Thus, God's foreknowledge at this point in no way condemns the Deity as being evil. In this sense, Jesus was the 1st Adam rather than the 2nd Adam. The only point that you could argue is that humans were limited (in a broad sense) to only two choices. And in that you have an argument.
    Edited by Phat, : clarification

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 519 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2021 2:55 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 534 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 10:03 AM Phat has replied
     Message 542 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 531 of 794 (887890)
    08-25-2021 3:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 521 by dwise1
    08-23-2021 4:27 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    dwise1 writes:
    Like I said, I've been through that kind of BS with BSA: "you have damned yourself to Hell for making the wrong religious decision" and "you are excluding yourself by having failed to meet the high standards of Scouting".
    What a mess! I can empathize with what you went through. Personally, I think that society-at-large and public organizations such as BSA should be secular. Beliefs should not play a role in membership. After all, If Jesus had been running the place, would He let everyone join or only the Southern Baptists!
    Are we getting a square and fair deal from God?
    I think so. Its humans who mess the message up. Which is another argument in favor of original sin.
    Or is he yet another hypocrite like the BSA?
    I hope not. If He is, we are doomed unless we choose to *poof* him out of existence such as AZPaul3 suggests. But getting back to the hypotheticals...how would a UU perspective chime in?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 521 by dwise1, posted 08-23-2021 4:27 AM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 538 by dwise1, posted 08-25-2021 11:44 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 545 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:17 PM Phat has replied
     Message 564 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2021 12:44 PM Phat has not replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8513
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 5.2


    Message 532 of 794 (887891)
    08-25-2021 3:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 528 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:31 AM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    But were I a betting man, I would wager that at some level you believe in some form of hocus pocus and Majik that humans have that is ok to embrace.
    Don't make the bet. You would lose. I am just as I appear, just as I write.
    Internet anonymity will bend peoples personalities, alter-egos, making themselves more to their liking than their reality. I suppose I'm no different. I can be more of an asshole.
    But, I can't help but believe what it is I believe. Which, in actuality, is nothing.
    I am a die-hard materialist and a critical student of history. The science rules in all places and in all things. It is my god, though it's a bit unresponsive to prayer and, unfortunately, can be considerably more mean and demanding, cruel and deadly, then any of the weak gods conjured by man.
    I can certainly accept variable human abilities well above the norm, but no one exists outside the bell curve of reality, so, no, there can be no hocus pocus or Majik for humanity, except as the charlatans would fool you to believe.
    Had we known each other 40 years ago, we may well have been in a park, high on LSD or Magic Mushrooms having these very same discussions.
    Been there, done that. If we could arrange it, my man, I would buy the weed and the beer.
    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 528 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 533 of 794 (887893)
    08-25-2021 6:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 529 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:41 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Phat writes:
    Let's say you could speak on behalf of such an individual who was hypothetically headed for hell at some future date. Would it really matter whether God knew the outcome if, in fact, the individual had plenty of time to choose his path more wisely?
    You are still missing the point.
    If God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and that God also has foreknowledge then the individual cannot change the outcome, choose a different path.
    OR that God is both evil and fallible.
    Phat, the God that the vast majority of US Christians worship simply cannot be defended as anything but the greatest evil imaginable.

    My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 529 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:41 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 535 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 10:28 AM jar has replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 534 of 794 (887895)
    08-25-2021 10:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 530 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:48 AM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    quote:
    Argument noted. I think I will argue that in the hypothetical, at the point of the initial "war in heaven" and angelic rebellion, God would have had to have not known the outcome but rather simply had allowed the possibility. My argument may not be as definite concerning human destiny.
    I think it is very much the same situation. If God created humanity knowing in advance all the decisions each human would make then it is the same in every relevant mistake. It’s like the time bomb analogy. And that’s before we get into all the interventions God supposedly made in human history.
    (The “war in heaven” stuff is a bit dicey theologically since the Revelation has it occurring as part of the end-times).

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 530 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:48 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 536 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 10:35 AM PaulK has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 535 of 794 (887896)
    08-25-2021 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 533 by jar
    08-25-2021 6:55 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    jar writes:
    You are still missing the point.
    If God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and that God also has foreknowledge then the individual cannot change the outcome, choose a different path.
    OR that God is both evil and fallible.
    Phat, the God that the vast majority of US Christians worship simply cannot be defended as anything but the greatest evil imaginable.
    You are skipping past the hypothetical. In essence, you are judging GOD based on human logic. You never acknowledge that there is a need for Jesus nor have you ever even referred to Satan as anything apart from a truth-telling plot device.(snake) I would thus expect your argument to hold up within the context of how you view GOD, God, and god.
    Hypothetically you are making an argument that defends Lucifer's decision to rebel and become autonomous. In essence, you are defending human autonomy and responsibility to answer the charge and in fact judge God Himself.
    I realize that your argument holds up in scripture but it is also based in the way you view God.
    You historically make the same basic arguments.
    jar writes:
    Phat, the God that the vast majority of US Christians worship simply cannot be defended as anything but the greatest evil imaginable.
    I'm not asking you to defend God. I'm asking you (in the hypothetical) to defend the fate of the victim, judging God based on the victims choices or lack thereof.
    Edited by Phat, : added

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 533 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 6:55 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 543 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 2:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 536 of 794 (887897)
    08-25-2021 10:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 534 by PaulK
    08-25-2021 10:03 AM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    PaulK writes:
    If God created humanity knowing in advance all the decisions each human would make then it is the same in every relevant mistake.
    I suppose that I could agree with your overall basic argument in that GOD was the Creator of all seen and unseen, including Lucifer so in that larger context He is in fact responsible for everything that happens.
    My hypothetical assumes classic apologetic belief in a divine Jesus and a very real adversary (who tested Jesus in the wilderness). By inference, this would imply that each and every human will be similarly tested in many ways during their life. Unlike Jesus, we are not without original sin, which is essentially the storyline of apologetic thinking. You would have to argue that we are born totally and completely neutral and free to choose our own path rather than the requirement that we choose Jesus or burn eternally.
    Which is an argument that well could be made.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 534 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 10:03 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 537 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 10:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    (1)
    Message 537 of 794 (887898)
    08-25-2021 10:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 536 by Phat
    08-25-2021 10:35 AM


    Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
    quote:
    I suppose that I could agree with your overall basic argument in that GOD was the Creator of all seen and unseen, including Lucifer so in that larger context He is in fact responsible for everything that happens.
    As I have said in the past it is the combination of creation and foreknowledge that is the primary issue. If God were simply a powerless observer foreknowledge would not be an issue. If God lacked foreknowledge and things went wrong despite his best efforts then there would still be a degree of responsibility, but not a great one.
    quote:
    My hypothetical assumes classic apologetic belief in a divine Jesus and a very real adversary (who tested Jesus in the wilderness). By inference, this would imply that each and every human will be similarly tested in many ways during their life. Unlike Jesus, we are not without original sin, which is essentially the storyline of apologetic thinking. You would have to argue that we are born totally and completely neutral and free to choose our own path rather than the requirement that we choose Jesus or burn eternally.
    I think you mean that you would have to argue that. Original Sin is a hugely problematic doctrine that again ends up placing much of the responsibility on God.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 536 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 10:35 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 5930
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.8


    Message 538 of 794 (887899)
    08-25-2021 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 531 by Phat
    08-25-2021 3:12 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Personally, I think that society-at-large and public organizations such as BSA should be secular.
    Agreed, but then it BSA perverted that and hid behind legalistic sophistry. They have been ruled to be a private organization (albeit open to the public) and as such they have been ruled to have the right to establish their own membership requirements.
    Of course, when an organization does that then we should expect them to publish those requirements and to abide by them. BSA did publish those requirements but then violated their own policies.
    For that matter, you used to be able to go in and buy copies of BSA's Rules and Regulations and Bylaws (which I did), but then as soon as their own policies started to be cited against them in court those publications disappeared from the store shelves and you had to go through the professional staff for access to that information (assume that they would allow it).
    BSA conducted itself in bad faith and, like Trump has done his entire life, used an army of lawyers to make specious arguments to allow them to get away with it. Officially, they are not a religious organization but rather they claim to be "absolutely nonsectarian" whose only actual religious requirement is that they urge members' families to pay definite attention to the families' own particular religion in the upbringing of the member -- as such, BSA officially has no power to define just exactly what that must entail, including that they cannot define "Duty to God" nor even determine whether a member does his "Duty to God" (nor even define what "God" is supposed to mean), but rather only the members' own religious leaders are authorized to do that (I already covered that).
    However, since religious organizations are given extra leeway in religious discrimination cases, BSA kept claiming in court that they were a religious organization (with a secret religious purpose at that!) and they had always been one from the very beginning. Except in another case which challenged this "religious organization's" free access to a public elementary school as violating church-state separation in which case suddenly BSA was proclaiming that they were not in any imaginable manner a religious organization and they had never been one.
    IOW, they were ready and more than willing to tell whatever lie would benefit them. For example, when I got involved in adult leadership, they had just instituted their Youth Protection Program (YPP) for adult leaders. Part of it was to expose excuses that offenders will use (eg, "the child invited it", which is yet another instance of the "blame the victim" mentality you had expressed and which triggered my reply). But then I learned in a special news report on BSA's history of sexual abuse cases that in the preceding decade BSA would use those exact same excuses and blaming the victims in court. No wonder the YPP training materials writers knew exactly what to write. Now, I still believe that the Youth Protection Program is a very good idea, but the only reason it was ever created was for BSA to cover their collective @$$ (and especially the dollar signs part).
    Beliefs should not play a role in membership.
    Which would not apply to a private religious organization, depending on their bylaws and membership requirements (there's a cautionary tale that a new church drafting its bylaws needs to keep in mind; see below).
    As I already covered, BSA was supposed to be an "absolutely nonsectarian" organization whose only religious component was to emphasize an importance that members' families should attend to in accordance with their own religious traditions. But then they started to arbitrarily imposing sectarian religious requirements.
    After all, If Jesus had been running the place, would He let everyone join or only the Southern Baptists!
    They would have very likely kicked him out, mainly in response from such churches as the Southern Baptists. BSA has Religious Awards whose programs are developed by those churches and BSA's only role is to recognize and promote them -- I would promote it in our Cub Scout pack since I personally believe that every member of a religion should at least be aware of what their religion teaches. In the early 1990's, neo-pagan units (who could possibly be more in tune with Nature, the essence of Scouting?) developed their own religious award, The Hart and Crescent, and submitted it. It was rejected because Baptists got all bent out of shape over "witches" -- I forget whether there was even a move within BSA to kick the neo-pagans out. So much for being "absolutely nonsectarian."
     
    Scouting is a very good program which teaches good values: Lord Baden-Powell has been quoted as saying that the Scout Law is superior to the Ten Commandments because it is filled with what to do instead of what not to do (DWise1 NOTE: trying to break bad habits by concentrating on "don't do it!" only keeps you thinking of doing that bad habit). Quite literally when I had become an atheist and was questioning what to base morality on (having been raised with that Christian fallacy that without God there's nothing to base morality on), I concluded that Scout Oath and Scout Law would work well. And it did and does.
    But BSA is a different kind of beast. Rather, it appears to be based on power and money. Power for religious groups to impose their will on the public and money from many sources. Membership in 1990 was $7 per member per year, both youth and adult, so income from that would be based on volume. They get that every annual enrollment (in February, as I seem to recall -- membership drives at the start of the school year is at a prorated rate, as I recall three decades later).
    What does BSA do with that money? Basically, pay the professionals and write program materials. All the real work is done by volunteers. Basically, Scouting is what happens on the unit and volunteer level, not on the BSA level.
    But the real money for BSA is made through charitable contributions, including direct contributions, United Way, providing facilities for free or very nearly free, sponsorship by the government and the military, church sponsorship, etc. That is actually the only reason that BSA has been trying to reform itself in the aftermath of their discrimination. Sure, part of it is because membership is declining in part because of the bad name they've given to Scouting. But a huge part is because those sponsoring organizations themselves have non-discrimination policies that forbid them from supporting organizations that do discriminate. So then ironically, BSA is excluding itself from receiving support.
    I personally could never contribute to our local United Way because of this. They have/had an anti-discrimination policy and yet they continued to support the local BSA council which was very directly involved in religious discrimination. Their first excuse was that they needed to see how the Randall Twins case turned out. That judgement found that BSA did indeed discriminate, so then their excuse was that they were waiting for the appeals were done. That dragged out for years, so their interim excuse was to ignore their own policies to say "we get to choose whom we support". When the California Supreme Court finally decided in BSA's favor, what they found was that while BSA did indeed discriminate, that didn't matter since as a private organization the cited law didn't apply to them. So United Way tried to say, "See? They don't discriminate!" Uh, yes, they did and do indeed discriminate; the law simply does not apply to them. But United Way's policies do still apply. Many other United Ways have followed their own policies and severed ties with BSA, but ours (Orange County, Calif) did not and so they will never have my support. We just cannot trust them.
    So why has BSA suddenly backed off from two of the "Three G's", gays and girls? Because of that loss of revenue from sources that do not allow discrimination.
    Ironically, that has led to loss of another source of revenue. For many decades, the Mormons made Scouting their primary youth program. Every single Mormon boy was required to be a Scout and would conscript adult leaders (a recent Mormon convert through marriage came in one morning complaining bitterly that he had just been drafted as Cubmaster and he didn't even have any sons). Every single Mormon boy stayed in the program until age of 18, but at the age of 14 they were done with Scouting and all diverted to sports programs, but the Mormon Church continued to pay for their BSA membership. As a result, the Mormons had a lot of influence with BSA (Penn and Teller did an episode on that).
    And a recurring disingenuous argument in court was that BSA really really really did not want to discriminate, but the Mormons were forcing them to do it by threatening to pull out. During the religious discrimination of the early 90's, the local council which was in the thick of it took out a full page ad in the newspaper proclaiming loudly that "Our values are not for sale!" My reaction was, "Of course not, because you have already sold them to the Mormons." Hypocrites!
    Well, now that has come to pass. Because of changes that BSA has made to try to restore their streams of income close to them because of their discriminatory actions, the Mormons have decided to drop Scouting and create their own youth program. I have never watched even a single episode of that show, but I love it when a plan comes together.
     
    So BSA's hypocritical "we're not excluding you; you're excluding yourself" is no different and no less evilly cruel than your "We send ourselves to hell by denying Jesus."
    Creating the situation to turn people into victims and then systematically blaming the victims for their own victimhood is what we would expect from rapists and child molesters and racists.
    And that is how you would choose to describe your god? That says a lot.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 531 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:12 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22388
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.2


    Message 539 of 794 (887901)
    08-25-2021 1:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 526 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:19 AM


    Re: Let us try a simpler analogy.
    Phat writes:
  • And for the sake of argument I am not claiming to be right and you wrong, though I sometimes feel that you guys see me as wrong solely on the presumption that God(or a living Christ) IS in fact a human creation and that I and most other CCoI (Christian Culture Of Ignorance--a term jar and I once defined) are engaged in a collective fantasy.
  • We do believe that religious adherents are engaged in a collective fantasy, and you believe the exact same thing, with the sole exception of those who believe as you do.
  • When discussing GOD (Creator of all seen and unseen) hypothetically, your side maintains that such a Deity does in fact have full responsibility for everything that He creates.
  • We're just drawing inevitable conclusions from your characterization of God. He's all-knowing and all-seeing, therefore he knows when anything he might do would have evil consequences, so if he does it anyway then he must be evil.
    I would argue that while in a philosophical and moral sense this statement is true, we humans also have essentially been given a choice.
    If your God is all-knowing then there is no choice. And if God is not all-knowing then there can be choice. Pick one - you can't have it both ways.
    If not, how could there be any solution except unbelief and getting on with life in the "real world"? And for a believer, that simply cannot be.
    So you think believers are like the Red Queen who could believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
  • Hypothetically, this "War In Heaven" happened a long time ago...at least from an apologetic perspective. The whole Free Will paradox was settled by the angelic realm. Humans came along after that decision was settled. Thus...arguing in Lucifers defense is moot. Either there is in fact a spiritual war and human decision or the whole story and scenario is clearly made up. I believe the former and you believe the latter.
  • How can you fault us for thinking your religious beliefs are made up when you believe the same thing about all other religious beliefs?
    You seem to inhabit this odd religious world where nothing can ever be known for certain and so you're forced to choose one religion among many and then just hope it's the right one. Increasing the likelihood that people's religious choices are wrong is that they most often choose the religion they were raised in. That's all they can do since there's no hard evidence that would permit them to consider which religion's evidence is best.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 526 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:19 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22388
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.2


    Message 540 of 794 (887903)
    08-25-2021 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 527 by Phat
    08-25-2021 2:27 AM


    Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
    Phat writes:
    ringo writes:
    If you know something bad is going to happen and you do nothing to prevent it, you are evil. Period.
    So are you suggesting that God was responsible for Lucifer's decision to become autonomous?
    You're making this up. There's nothing in the Bible saying that Lucifer made a decision to have free will.
    If so, how else could future civilizations be given a choice if there was only one door through which to go?
    If future civilizations have a choice, how could God be all-knowing?
    And before you answer, I can almost hear one possible answer: "We have been given a choice. Our choice is to dismiss all such mythos as outdated thinking, march forward with our human-derived and originated science and evidence-based thinking, and make our own world in a responsible and myth-free way."
    You keep going over the exact same ground again and again. You know the answers, but instead of moving the discussion forward you reset to square zero and find yet another way to pose the same questions.
    And the only reason for us discussing these hypotheticals between religious and nonreligious thinking is that there are many many believers who will live in this world along with our children and the thinking processes and beliefs will continually clash.
    Of course Zeus believers will clash with Odin believers. But obviously one of them must be right. Right?
    Ultimately whether or not God and Jesus are reality or myth, the effect of such beliefs will impact the future.
    Those holding false beliefs will always have an impact. Right this very minute we have major problems with people who don't believe covid is real or that the vaccine is a government plot to sterilize or implant chips or that Trump won the election or that everyone who's not white should go back where they came from or that Sandy Hook was a hoax or that the liberals are running a pedophile sex ring out of a pizza house and on and on.
    The way to stop wallowing in false beliefs is to require evidence for what you believe and to say "I don't know" a lot more often.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 527 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 2:27 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 634 by Phat, posted 09-01-2021 1:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
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