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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 556 of 673 (887930)
08-26-2021 3:21 AM


Phat, you can't escape logic by inventing what you call hypotheticals.

If your god is all knowing and the creator of everything then he created evil and knew its consequences.

Can you accept that or not?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 08-26-2021 11:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 557 of 673 (887934)
08-26-2021 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
08-25-2021 9:24 PM


Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
Phat writes:

It is a trust issue. You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other. Granted it is hypothetically more of a copout to blame satan, but putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me. Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls. The temptation is akin to tempering us. Turning bnttle iron into solid steel.

You may as well be arguing about hobbits, elves and ogres for all the sense it makes.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 9:24 PM Phat has seen this message

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 89 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 558 of 673 (887935)
08-26-2021 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
08-25-2021 5:50 PM


Re: Basics, jar. Read the hypothetical.
Phat, you make it pretty much impossible for anyone to have a rational discussion with you...

Lets go through this hypothetical slowly.

You are not offering any "hypotheticals" - you are merely asking jar to answer your questions by pretending you are right. How is that conducive to rational discussion??

Here's an example of a "hypothetical"

There is a man who has spent his entire life caring for the sick, feeding the poor, and giving to those less fortunate. He treats his wife with love and respect and raises his children to be loving caring people. He does not hoard money or wealth, but is very generous - giving his wealth away to help others. He always puts other's needs before his own and sacrifices his own wants to make sure that other's needs are met. However, this man lives in a country where his god is not the god of the Bible. He has never heard of Jesus, let alone believed in him and accepted him as his savior.

There is another man who was raised in the church, accepted Christ as a child and then re-dedicated his life when he was a young man. He attends church regularly, reads his Bible daily and can cite numerous Bible verses by heart. He gives his 10% tithe regularly, serves on the church board, participates in evangelical outreach and goes on mission trips annually to build churches. He has never smoked or drank alcohol, had premarital sex, used the Lord's name in vain. He opposes abortion and homosexuality and believes in a literal six-day creation. However, he is rude and dismissive, especially to those he views as less worthy than himself. At church board meetings he is pushy and argues vigorously for his own agenda. He considers the 10% he pays to the church to be his entire obligation for charity and holds the remainder of his wealth with a tight fist, saving up considerable wealth for himself. He is distant and neglectful to his wife and children, preferring to either work or spend his time serving at the church. His children are uncertain if their father even loves them. He also supported Trump because of his "America first", anti-immigrant and pro-corporation policies.

Now... according to church dogma, salvation is by grace, not by works and therefore the first man is condemned to hell and the second man is to be welcomed into heaven.

Explain why this is "good" and how God is justified for creating this system.

Should God send people to hell simply because they were born in a place that was not Christian?

Explain why the second man, who had accepted Christ as his savior and did all the expected "Christian" behaviors, did not change his heart and did not show love and mercy to his fellow humans. Is God incapable of changing human hearts or is our treatment of others irrelevant to salvation?

So Phat... this is an example of how "hypotheticals" work. The purpose of a "hypothetical" is to force the reader to think beyond the traditional view point. So in this case, the traditional viewpoint is that God is good and salvation is by grace alone. So the "hypotheticals" I present here force you to re-think those traditional views. In these scenarios, can God be good if salvation is by grace alone? Could the traditional viewpoint be wrong?

First, explain to me why God should not have foreknowledge? (Remember...according to *your* hypothetical, ALL Gods are made-up. )

How is this a "hypothetical" ? If God is "made-up" then him having foreknowledge would also be "made-up". IF jar believes all gods to be made up, how could he possible explain why God should not have foreknowledge? You are merely saying "Pretend God is real and he has the qualities I have described. Why would he not have those qualities?" How could anyone answer that rationally?

HBD

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 5:50 PM Phat has seen this message

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 89 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 559 of 673 (887936)
08-26-2021 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
08-25-2021 9:24 PM


Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
Granted it is hypothetically more of a copout to blame satan, but putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me.

Its hardly just "one of His precious little creations..." that ends up being damned, is it Phat? While it depends on which group decides who is condemned, the vast majority of the people who have ever lived do not meet the conditions of salvation. From a fundamentalist viewpoint, probably upwards of 95% of the humans who have ever lived are going to hell. From a Catholic perspective, that number may go down to 75% or so. I am only guessing at the numbers, but think about all the people who have ever walked the earth and how many of them were True Christians and it seems obvious that, accordingly, the vast majority of humans will spend eternity in hell. That seems a bit different of a situation to question than how you framed it as "even one of His precious creations..."

And you should probably stop using the word "hypothetical" since you obviously don't know what it means. Its like when people use the word "literally" when what they really mean is "figuratively". LOL, makes me laugh.

Correction for you:

quote:
Granted it is a copout to blame satan, ...

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 9:24 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 560 of 673 (887938)
08-26-2021 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by Tangle
08-26-2021 3:21 AM


tangle writes:

If your god is all-knowing and the creator of everything then he created evil and knew its consequences.

Can you accept that or not?


If God had never created either the possibility or actuality of evil, what then would have been the consequence for His people? For one thing, we never would have understood nor even invented movies such as Star Wars. For another, this world would still be jam-packed full of people...since procreation is good. I'm not sure what else would be different, but the imagination runs wild at the possibilities. One thing also....there would be no need for Jesus since there would be nothing that needed to be fixed. That sounds like the world you now live in...100% myth-free. Except that even in such a world, evil exists and manifests through people. What do you propose as your solution? Therapy? Counciling? Meds?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2021 3:21 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2021 11:51 AM Phat has taken no action
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 561 of 673 (887939)
08-26-2021 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
08-25-2021 9:24 PM


Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
Phat writes:

You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God...


I'm not "pinning" anything on God. The Bible says explicitly that God created evil. Even you say that God created all things seen and unseen. That includes evil. There's just no way around it.

Phat writes:

... and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other.


The "fallen angel" is not reality. It's made up.

And it has nothing to do with doubting God or mistrusting God.

Phat writes:

... putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me.


That's because you're not thinking.

Phat writes:

Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls.


Satan was not "allowed to exist". God created Satan. And God tells Satan what to do (see Job).

Phat writes:

God's foreknowledge is unknown and thus irrelevant to us.


But it's relevant to Him. If he knows evil will happen and does nothing to prevent it, He is evil. There's no getting around that.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 9:24 PM Phat has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8484
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 562 of 673 (887940)
08-26-2021 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 560 by Phat
08-26-2021 11:29 AM


Phat writes:

If God had never created either the possibility or actuality of evil, what then would have been the consequence for His people? For one thing, we never would have understood nor even invented movies such as Star Wars. For another, this world would still be jam-packed full of people...since procreation is good. I'm not sure what else would be different, but the imagination runs wild at the possibilities. One thing also....there would be no need for Jesus since there would be nothing that needed to be fixed.

Ok so that was a 'yes' wasn't it?

What do you propose as your solution?

The solution was not to create the problem.

If we accept that your god exists then the solution was either to not create or do what your book says he originally intended and make a Paradise, just leave out the bloody snake. He's God remember.

Alternatively just have heaven, why not?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 08-26-2021 11:29 AM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 563 of 673 (887941)
08-26-2021 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 560 by Phat
08-26-2021 11:29 AM


Phat writes:

One thing also....there would be no need for Jesus since there would be nothing that needed to be fixed.


There is no need for Jesus. There is need for the message - but people like you keep fighting it.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5062
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 564 of 673 (887942)
08-26-2021 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:12 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
But getting back to the hypotheticals...how would a UU perspective chime in?

First, keep in mind what Unitarian Universalism is: a non-credal organization in which we are unified by a shared search for spiritual growth guided by a dynamic, "living tradition". UU was formed in 1961 through the merger of two denominations: the American Unitarian Association established in 1825 and the Universalist Church of America established in 1793.

Unitarianism has its roots in Christianity, but it was founded on a rejection of Trinitarianism in favor of a unified view of God; ie, only one God, not three. Jesus came to be seen as a Great Teacher rather than a god in his own right (ironic that "true Christians" choose to worship him as a god while rejecting or just ignoring his teachings). Over time, Unitarianism became increasingly rational (eg, rejecting superstition) and philosophical.

Universalism stressed a loving God in reaction against the standard Christian portrayal of a wrathful God in which the only goal was to avoid Hell (which they would describe at great length with devilish glee). Basically, in Universalism Hell does not exist (same as in Judaism as I understand). In one sermon, our minister attributed the decline of the Universalist church to its message being so successful, since most mainstream churches ended up adopting the idea of a loving God instead of fire and brimstone.

In 1961, life-long Unitarians did not receive the news of merging with Universalists well, since they viewed that as injecting superstition into their churches. Ironically, UUs form such a wide tent that neo-pagans have also found a home with us. Or would those old Unitarians have viewed the neo-pagans as the slippery-slope result of letting the Universalists in?

I think it was Thomas Starr King, who observed: "Universalists believe that God is too good to damn us and Unitarians believe that they are too good to be damned." Thomas Starr King (1824-1864) had first been a Universalist minister and then a Unitarian minister later to be called in 1860 to a Unitarian church in San Francisco. As an orator, Starr King spoke zealously in favor of the Union and has been credited with keeping California in the Union during the Civil War. Every state has two statues representing them in the National Statuary Hall Collection displayed in the United States Capitol. Thomas Starr King's statue was proposed in 1913, but sadly was replaced by Ronald Reagan in 2006.

And a frequent sermon anecdote is of a Baptist youth doing her Sunday School assignment of speaking with ministers of other churches in order to learn the differences. When she asked the UU minister about Hell and he responded that they don't believe in that, astonished she asked, "But then why be good?" "Because it is the better way."

 
So then regarding all these hypotheticals about non-issues like Hell that we don't even believe to exist (except as metaphors), a UU perspective would range from them being tempests in teapots, to tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing, to just good old-fashioned mental masturbation to be filed away with wondering how many angels could dance on the head of a pin (none, since Baptists know that dancing is evil).

 
Speaking of Hell being a metaphor, here is a common metaphor of Heaven and Hell (I think it might come from Buddhism). We are shown two round tables both with a pot of nourishing stew in the center. Everybody sitting around the tables have a spoon with a long handle so that it can reach the pot, but it's longer than the arm so nobody can feed himself. One group is starving to death because they insist on trying to feed only themselves, not caring for anyone else; that is Hell. The other group is well-fed and thriving because they cooperate and feed each other; that is Heaven.

To tie this in with another topic, which table would you think applies to the America First crowd?


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 565 of 673 (887943)
08-26-2021 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by dwise1
08-26-2021 12:44 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
dwise1 writes:

... non-issues like Hell that we don't even believe to exist (except as metaphors)....


My dad was a fundamentalist Christian and I think he believed in a literal Hell - but he also said that we create our own heaven and hell on earth.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 566 of 673 (887944)
08-26-2021 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Phat
08-26-2021 11:29 AM


Phat writes:

What do you propose as your solution?

The solution is really very simple. Educate people so they understand that the message is more important than the messenger; that following Jesus means DOING rather than believing; that Jesus was a socialist communist, that reality is and that the Bill Will Get Paid!


My Website: My Website

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Percy
Member
Posts: 20749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 567 of 673 (887945)
08-26-2021 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by dwise1
08-26-2021 12:44 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
dwise1 writes:

In 1961, life-long Unitarians did not receive the news of merging with Universalists well,...

That's an understatement.

...since they viewed that as injecting superstition into their churches.

And removing both spirituality (not the original intent, but the eventual result of too big a tent) and a firm Christian foundation.

Disgusted, over time Unitarian members disengaged, leaving the Universalists in charge. While Unitarian churches remain, Unitarian philosophy is no longer broadly represented in the United States. Universalists view the merger as the best real estate deal they ever made (originating in the early 19th century and becoming widely popular, Unitarian churches occupied prime real estate on the central squares of many small towns).

Bitter? Who, me?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20749
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 568 of 673 (887947)
08-27-2021 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:17 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
How could you not understand something so basic. If God has foreknowledge that you will choose a chihuahua at the pet store tomorrow, and then you instead choose a pekinese, then obviously God does not have foreknowledge.

And if he has foreknowledge that ISIS will commit a suicide bomber attack at the Kabul airport that will kill 13 American troops and at least 45 Afghanis and he permits it to happen, then he is evil.

It's a big problem that when you see arguments like the above then you are moved to write words that make no sense or that go down meaningless ratholes. You need to address arguments like these in a rational and straightforward matter rather than in ways that cause people to throw up their hands and exclaim, "Has Phat become cognitively challenged?"

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 12:12 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 569 of 673 (887949)
08-27-2021 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by Percy
08-27-2021 9:56 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
And if he has foreknowledge that ISIS will commit a suicide bomber attack at the Kabul airport that will kill 13 American troops and at least 45 Afghanis and he permits it to happen, then he is evil.
What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives. Humans are. The fact that you label Him as evil tells me that you have another spirit within your logic. The same vibe that tells you He is evil is itself evil incarnate. I know that sounds whacky. But you have never been a believer due to lack of objective evidence....as if everything in the universe needs objective evidence before humans can call it a reality.

If we still want to explore hypotheticals, maybe our next question is why I can believe in a God with no objective evidence and why such a God would want to be so vague.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by Percy, posted 08-27-2021 9:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by ringo, posted 08-27-2021 12:21 PM Phat has taken no action
 Message 571 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2021 12:33 PM Phat has taken no action
 Message 572 by jar, posted 08-27-2021 1:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 573 by dwise1, posted 08-27-2021 1:44 PM Phat has taken no action
 Message 615 by Percy, posted 08-29-2021 12:25 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19520
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 570 of 673 (887950)
08-27-2021 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
08-27-2021 12:12 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:

What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives.


Of course He is. Remember the Father/son relationship?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 12:12 PM Phat has taken no action

  
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