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Author
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Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 529 of 794 (887888)
08-25-2021 2:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 522 by jar
08-23-2021 6:51 AM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes: The issue is not whether or not God has foreknowledge but rather with what a God that does have foreknowledge does; about Gods behavior. Yes, I understand your position to a degree. The decision about how to act and behave, however, is a human decision in the timeframe that we are alive. One could later hypothetically argue (as they are burning in hell's fiery flames) that God foreknew that they would end up in such a predicament and that He is thus evil, fully responsible, and negligent. My question to such an individual was I able to speak with them before their roast is this:
Did you ever have a fair choice? Why or why not?
Is God fully responsible for what has happened to you? Why? Let's say you could speak on behalf of such an individual who was hypothetically headed for hell at some future date. Would it really matter whether God knew the outcome if, in fact, the individual had plenty of time to choose his path more wisely?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 522 by jar, posted 08-23-2021 6:51 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 533 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 6:55 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 541 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:45 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 530 of 794 (887889)
08-25-2021 2:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 519 by PaulK
08-23-2021 2:55 AM
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Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
PaulK writes: First, unless you argue that God did not know in advance that Satan would fall, your talk of “possibilities” is just an attempt at deception. Second, your point as quoted above doesn’t even make sense. Indeed, unless you deny God’s absolute foreknowledge there is no “freedom to rebel”. If we are locked into following God’s plan it isn’t freedom and no true rebellion is possible. Argument noted. I think I will argue that in the hypothetical, at the point of the initial "war in heaven" and angelic rebellion, God would have had to have not known the outcome but rather simply had allowed the possibility. My argument may not be as definite concerning human destiny. The sides have been chosen before the first human was born. Thus, God's foreknowledge at this point in no way condemns the Deity as being evil. In this sense, Jesus was the 1st Adam rather than the 2nd Adam. The only point that you could argue is that humans were limited (in a broad sense) to only two choices. And in that you have an argument. Edited by Phat, : clarification
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 519 by PaulK, posted 08-23-2021 2:55 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 534 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 10:03 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 542 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:55 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 531 of 794 (887890)
08-25-2021 3:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 521 by dwise1
08-23-2021 4:27 AM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
dwise1 writes: Like I said, I've been through that kind of BS with BSA: "you have damned yourself to Hell for making the wrong religious decision" and "you are excluding yourself by having failed to meet the high standards of Scouting". What a mess! I can empathize with what you went through. Personally, I think that society-at-large and public organizations such as BSA should be secular. Beliefs should not play a role in membership. After all, If Jesus had been running the place, would He let everyone join or only the Southern Baptists! 
Are we getting a square and fair deal from God? I think so. Its humans who mess the message up. Which is another argument in favor of original sin. Or is he yet another hypocrite like the BSA? I hope not. If He is, we are doomed unless we choose to *poof* him out of existence such as AZPaul3 suggests. But getting back to the hypotheticals...how would a UU perspective chime in?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 521 by dwise1, posted 08-23-2021 4:27 AM | | dwise1 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 535 of 794 (887896)
08-25-2021 10:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 533 by jar
08-25-2021 6:55 AM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes: You are still missing the point. If God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, and that God also has foreknowledge then the individual cannot change the outcome, choose a different path. OR that God is both evil and fallible. Phat, the God that the vast majority of US Christians worship simply cannot be defended as anything but the greatest evil imaginable. You are skipping past the hypothetical. In essence, you are judging GOD based on human logic. You never acknowledge that there is a need for Jesus nor have you ever even referred to Satan as anything apart from a truth-telling plot device.(snake) I would thus expect your argument to hold up within the context of how you view GOD, God, and god. Hypothetically you are making an argument that defends Lucifer's decision to rebel and become autonomous. In essence, you are defending human autonomy and responsibility to answer the charge and in fact judge God Himself. I realize that your argument holds up in scripture but it is also based in the way you view God. You historically make the same basic arguments.
jar writes: Phat, the God that the vast majority of US Christians worship simply cannot be defended as anything but the greatest evil imaginable. I'm not asking you to defend God. I'm asking you (in the hypothetical) to defend the fate of the victim, judging God based on the victims choices or lack thereof. Edited by Phat, : added
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 533 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 6:55 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 543 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 2:15 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 536 of 794 (887897)
08-25-2021 10:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 534 by PaulK
08-25-2021 10:03 AM
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Re: jar and Phat and the God They Each Market
PaulK writes: If God created humanity knowing in advance all the decisions each human would make then it is the same in every relevant mistake. I suppose that I could agree with your overall basic argument in that GOD was the Creator of all seen and unseen, including Lucifer so in that larger context He is in fact responsible for everything that happens. My hypothetical assumes classic apologetic belief in a divine Jesus and a very real adversary (who tested Jesus in the wilderness). By inference, this would imply that each and every human will be similarly tested in many ways during their life. Unlike Jesus, we are not without original sin, which is essentially the storyline of apologetic thinking. You would have to argue that we are born totally and completely neutral and free to choose our own path rather than the requirement that we choose Jesus or burn eternally. Which is an argument that well could be made.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 534 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 10:03 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 537 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 10:46 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 546 of 794 (887913)
08-25-2021 3:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 541 by Percy
08-25-2021 1:45 PM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Percy writes: If God knew the outcome in advance then the individual could not have chosen it from free will. (Edited) What other way could the individual receive it? Why does the individual not have a choice? They are going to choose something and we humans have no idea what God knows or doesn't know about our future choices anyway. The answer is not that God is evil for having foreknowledge and not acting on it. The answer is that humans have a responsibility to choose wisely in the timeframe we are allowed on this earth. And if we cant freely choose our destiny (being limited to this point in time) we can at least choose our behavior and actions on a daily basis. My answer to foreknowledge vs free will is simply that we can't know. Thus it is our responsibility to believe and do. And it never hurts to ask God for help, either. If He turns out to be evil, we are screwed when we die unless there is another yet un-named victim advocate waiting in the wings of the cosmos. I have no problem with the traditional apologetic story about Jesus being eternal with GOD (aka God's human character) and sacrificing Himself as a ransom for human bondage ...which admittedly was caused by God allowing satan to rebel and have his own clubhouse. Placing God on trial takes a lot of guts. Why does everyone focus on it all being Gods responsibility rather than satans deception and tempting? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 541 by Percy, posted 08-25-2021 1:45 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 568 by Percy, posted 08-27-2021 9:56 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 547 of 794 (887914)
08-25-2021 3:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 545 by ringo
08-25-2021 3:17 PM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
ringo writes: And if you were running the place, you wouldn't let Jesus join. Maybe and maybe not. I would be judged accordingly. If I thought that (random street guy) Jesus was out to hustle and survive and if I sensed that my spare change could be better used elsewhere, I likely wouldn't let Jesus (aka homeless street guy) in the door. I would of course be judged accordingly. Let me ask you this: If Jesus were running the place, would everyone have to sell all that they have in order to get in? Or is that your favorite scripture due to the fact that you were a rebel and owed back taxes? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 545 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:17 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 549 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:40 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 548 of 794 (887916)
08-25-2021 3:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 543 by jar
08-25-2021 2:15 PM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes: There can be no justification. You make similar assumptions that Percy made. Who are humans to define God's responsibilities, limits, and duties? In the hypothetical, there is a spiritual explanation. Do you have any idea how the spiritual world is presupposed to work? *long pause* I didn't think so.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 543 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 2:15 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 550 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2021 3:56 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 551 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 4:09 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 552 by AZPaul3, posted 08-25-2021 5:23 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 553 of 794 (887923)
08-25-2021 5:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 551 by jar
08-25-2021 4:09 PM
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Basics, jar. Read the hypothetical.
Lets go through this hypothetical slowly. First, explain to me why God should not have foreknowledge? (Remember...according to *your* hypothetical, ALL Gods are made-up. ) So again....challenge my apologetic hypothetical....don't holler at me. Your anger and frustration speak volumes. And you cant simply attempt to reframe my argument. You are free to claim that absolute foreknowledge is evil if anyone is damned. You are free to claim that all Gods are made up. My challenge for you is twofold.
Become a victim's advocate for a hypothetical human who ends up sending himself to hell (or at least ineligible for heaven) Explain why God is evil for sending satan to hell and thus setting the place up. (Potential evil vs actualized evil)
Given that some argue that humans create any and all Gods (Except perhaps GOD Himself) explain why Jesus is not necessary to accept for every man, woman, and child. Explain the loophole that allows for God to save everybody and for nobody to be damned. Keep in mind that you are defending the satan of classical apologetics.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 551 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 4:09 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 554 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 8:11 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 558 by herebedragons, posted 08-26-2021 9:10 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 555 of 794 (887927)
08-25-2021 9:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 544 by ringo
08-25-2021 3:15 PM
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Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
ringo writes: Why is it important for them to be "given a choice"? As far as I can see, the "choice" is just your cop-out that absolves God of any responsibility. It is a trust issue. You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other. Granted it is hypothetically more of a copout to blame satan, but putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me. Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls. The temptation is akin to tempering us. Turning bnttle iron into solid steel. God's foreknowledge is unknown and thus irrelevant to us. We do our best and hope that when we die we find that He is good.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 544 by ringo, posted 08-25-2021 3:15 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 557 by Percy, posted 08-26-2021 8:12 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 559 by herebedragons, posted 08-26-2021 9:31 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 561 by ringo, posted 08-26-2021 11:47 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 560 of 794 (887938)
08-26-2021 11:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 556 by Tangle
08-26-2021 3:21 AM
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tangle writes: If your god is all-knowing and the creator of everything then he created evil and knew its consequences. Can you accept that or not?
If God had never created either the possibility or actuality of evil, what then would have been the consequence for His people? For one thing, we never would have understood nor even invented movies such as Star Wars.  For another, this world would still be jam-packed full of people...since procreation is good. I'm not sure what else would be different, but the imagination runs wild at the possibilities. One thing also....there would be no need for Jesus since there would be nothing that needed to be fixed. That sounds like the world you now live in...100% myth-free. Except that even in such a world, evil exists and manifests through people. What do you propose as your solution? Therapy? Counciling? Meds?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 556 by Tangle, posted 08-26-2021 3:21 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 569 of 794 (887949)
08-27-2021 12:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 568 by Percy
08-27-2021 9:56 AM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
And if he has foreknowledge that ISIS will commit a suicide bomber attack at the Kabul airport that will kill 13 American troops and at least 45 Afghanis and he permits it to happen, then he is evil. What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives. Humans are. The fact that you label Him as evil tells me that you have another spirit within your logic. The same vibe that tells you He is evil is itself evil incarnate. I know that sounds whacky. But you have never been a believer due to lack of objective evidence....as if everything in the universe needs objective evidence before humans can call it a reality. If we still want to explore hypotheticals, maybe our next question is why I can believe in a God with no objective evidence and why such a God would want to be so vague. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 568 by Percy, posted 08-27-2021 9:56 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 574 of 794 (887957)
08-27-2021 4:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 572 by jar
08-27-2021 1:23 PM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes: the problem is that the God who is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen and that has foreknowledge is EVIL for creating a human that gets damned. This argument is used to support Lucifer's defense that he was foreknown to become satan. It is NOT applicable to humans who in fact DO have a choice. But of course, you will say that I cant read and am making stuff up...
dwise1 writes: Then what good is he?(...)God is useless and depending on any of the gods for anything is far more useless. We are on our own and we have to depend on each other for everything. For that matter, depending on the gods only makes matters far worse. Welcome to atheism! Atheism assumes that humans are untainted by any suggestion of a spiritual war(original sin) and that satan, as well as God, are simply human mythos and fully made up. Thus I would expect you to defend your argument based on those conclusions.
Tangle writes: f course a god can do anything he likes, he's a god. But *your* god can't - he's a loving god according to you. A god that condemns the vast majority of humanity to everlasting torture is evil. We are not condemned if we in fact have a way out. You can dismiss it all as a goat herder story but you cant argue that God is evil. Through Jesus Christ God defeated evil. You of course still have the argument as to why (hypothetically) God allowed Lucifer to become Satan but were I you, I wouldn't use that argument to defend humans or Satan. If the apologetic beliefs are in any way true, both the fallen angel and the Creator of all seen and unseen exist.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 572 by jar, posted 08-27-2021 1:23 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 575 by jar, posted 08-27-2021 4:33 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 576 by Tangle, posted 08-27-2021 5:31 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 577 by nwr, posted 08-27-2021 5:34 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 595 by Percy, posted 08-28-2021 11:35 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 579 of 794 (887964)
08-27-2021 11:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 575 by jar
08-27-2021 4:33 PM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
From Message 150jar writes: To try to tie this discussion back to the topic, "Original Sin" is a concept in Christianity even if not strongly held by all chapters of Club Christian, and yes, genetics and upbringing and intelligence and experience and culture and society and the law and likely things I have not mentioned can all "motivate" (as opposed to being the "motive") behavior. However as a Christian I also believe that we have a duty, a responsibility, to always try to do what is right for others even when that may be difficult, unpleasant, counter to our desires, and regardless of whether our motivation (as opposed to "motive") is conscious, unconscious, within our control, out of our control, genetic, "Original Sin", "The Fall", "I'm depraved on account of I'm deprived" or any other possibility. So does this mean that in your eyes, people such as myself should, if we claim to be Christian, suck it up and pay the bill? Even if the world passes us by? Even if we become the Butlers, Gardeners, and Servants of other cultures? If so, that is a hard teaching. Ringo even takes it a step farther and declares that anyone who claims to be a Christianshould essentially sell all that they have in order to help a world where most do not believe in Jesus. That is hard teaching!! jar writes: As a human we have control over our behavior within certain limits. Yes, it is possible to alter behavior by surgery, drugs, illness, experience, but those are abnormalities and often can be treated. That does not change the fact that I believe I am charged to try to do what is right for others even when that might not be best for me or what I "want" to do. And finally... that is a hard teaching! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 575 by jar, posted 08-27-2021 4:33 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 581 of 794 (887967)
08-28-2021 3:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 580 by PaulK
08-28-2021 1:26 AM
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking
You’ve just discovered that it isn’t easy to actually follow Jesus. Which says a lot about Christianity. What does it say about Christianity? It is my belief that no one can do what is required. We need God's grace to do what is required. Ringo has argued otherwise, saying that the early church did it. He fails to see how spoiled the modern church is, however. It is not normal human nature to give up everything that one has simply to do the right thing. What I mean is that it is one thing to do as jar does and help the neighbor or the local grocery store. It is quite another to give up every material thing that you have or sacrifice your time when you too have a life. You’ve just discovered that it isn’t easy to actually follow Jesus. Especially when you are actually convinced that He is real. To be honest, I know that ringos argument is basically correct. Though I would argue that Jesus told the rich young ruler something specific to his problem with priorities, I can't argue against the basic charge that we all should consider others better than ourselves. My gripe with ringo is that he exempts himself from the charge that he claims I should follow. If Jesus is real and is who the apologists say He is, everyone should follow His commands...not just believers.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 580 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2021 1:26 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 582 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2021 3:45 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 594 by nwr, posted 08-28-2021 11:23 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 598 by ringo, posted 08-28-2021 12:01 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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