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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 585 of 673 (887971)
08-28-2021 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by jar
08-25-2021 2:15 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
jar writes:

f God is the creator of all, seen and unseen, and has foreknowledge the individual has no choice.

Nonsense. The more I think about it the more I think your conclusion is (possibly) wrong. The individual makes their choice. (By what they do in life and by God examining their heart (motives and intentions) and they send themselves to whatever destination they will go after death. The fact that God could know that destination in no way means that God was evil for foreknowing their damnation. The fact is, they had a clear choice and they lived it.

You cant play these mind games of God having to be responsible for a human's freely chosen outcome.

Full Stop.

  • Did God give each and every human ever born the opportunity and means to repent?
  • Did God offer a solution for what some CCoI refer to as original sin?
  • Is it possible that our life is a test? In any given test, does everyone pass?
  • Do we even hypothetically know if damnation itself is the final destination for a given creation? (apart from Lucifer)
    The point is what the character of GOD actually is. The point is not the simple mythos stories that say that if you don't attend church and give your money and labor to them you will fail.

    I think that you are essentially arguing against the God of classical apologetics and the CCoI. But then again, you have taught that we create the God that we worship and believe in and market.

    Im here to tell you that the God I market gives you ample opportunities to answer the charge and to complete your destiny. If you were to someday end up damned, it would be your own fault...not His. And keep in mind that the only creature in my hypothetical that we know or suspect ends up damned is the Fallen Angel of classical apologetics. If you want to indict God and defend him(Lucifer aka satan), knock yourself out.

    There is no possible way to defend the actions of that God OR justify the fate of the victim.
    There is also at this point in time no way to predict the destination of the victim. The argument assumes that we know. We do not.

    Edited by Phat, : clarification

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 543 by jar, posted 08-25-2021 2:15 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 587 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 9:24 AM Phat has replied
     Message 592 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 10:44 AM Phat has replied
     Message 599 by ringo, posted 08-28-2021 12:08 PM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 586 of 673 (887972)
    08-28-2021 9:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 583 by jar
    08-28-2021 7:19 AM


    Re: what does the Bible say?
    jar writes:

    Phat the bill will always get paid; the issue is how to pay it. We cannot avoid that fact.

    But because we have been trying to avoid paying the bill, the bill just keeps getting bigger and bigger with far more serious pain coming due.

    The issue is more than that. The issue is who we owe it to, why these hypothetical lenders even need to be repaid, and whether or not they also owe a bill just as we do. Perhaps the charge that you speak of many times is a form of every human owing other humans.

    There is no group of humans that must be singled out as responsible for this bill of which you speak. I know for a fact that the US Government and the Federal Reserve are responsible for inflating the "bill" to over 27 trillion dollars. I can tell you right now that it is far from clear to whom that bill is addressed.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 583 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 7:19 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 589 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 9:26 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 588 of 673 (887974)
    08-28-2021 9:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 582 by PaulK
    08-28-2021 3:45 AM


    The Bill Collector
    PaulK writes:

    And you complain about a lot less than that. Blows to national pride come hard to you.

    quote:
    Especially when you are actually convinced that He is real.

    That should make it easier, not harder.

    The only way that I would give up all that I had in order to pay a huge bill that the Federal Reserve and my own government create and inflate every day is if Jesus Himself told me that giving everything up was how this bill would be repaid. I would rather be thrown in jail rather than pay for their reckless spending, stimulus, and attempts to keep the stock market at record highs. And I would stand before God and say the same thing.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 582 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2021 3:45 AM PaulK has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 600 by ringo, posted 08-28-2021 12:11 PM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 590 of 673 (887976)
    08-28-2021 9:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 587 by jar
    08-28-2021 9:24 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    jar writes:

    Nonsense Phat; that God is evil for creating that person!

    Again, you are defending Lucifer for being allowed to choose autonomy. Humans have a choice. The ones who die suddenly without having known of a choice will not end up damned. People such as you and I will be judged based on what we do, could have done, and were consciously aware that we should.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 587 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 9:24 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 593 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 10:59 AM Phat has seen this message

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 591 of 673 (887977)
    08-28-2021 9:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 589 by jar
    08-28-2021 9:26 AM


    Re: what does the Bible say?
    It is telling that what I say angers you. Are you that sure of what you believe and have learned?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 589 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 9:26 AM jar has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 596 of 673 (887982)
    08-28-2021 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 592 by Tangle
    08-28-2021 10:44 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    Tangle writes:

    Can you explain how the billions of people that were born before Christianity was invented had a choice? According to you, they are in hell.

    As are all those billions born in non-Christian countries..

    Message 590
    Phat writes:

    Humans have a choice. The ones who die suddenly without having known of a choice will not end up damned.

    I have no idea if anyone is in Hell apart from the fallen angels for which it was ostensibly created. And as I have said before, that was no fault of God. In order to believe this (what you call a mythological fairy tale,) as I have said before God can only be held responsible for allowing the angels to fall.

    And in that context, I could care less. They failed to make the grade. And Angels cannot repent.

    Gods only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up. Some could argue that God should have been nicey nice towards everything He created!!!

    So should we blame God for allowing guns to exist? How about Nuclear weapons? After all, if He were a loving character we wouldn't even have to hunt for our food.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 592 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 10:44 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 601 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 2:02 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 602 of 673 (887990)
    08-28-2021 9:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 597 by ringo
    08-28-2021 11:46 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    ringo writes:

    Jesus portrayed you in the pigsty begging for a corn cob.

    Wait a minute! Jesus portrayed the Prodigal Son as the one begging for a corn cob. In that analogy, the Father welcomed his destitute son home with open arms after the son had squandered his inheritance.

    The other parable you use is the Rich Young Ruler. Evidently, you think that when Jesus talks about what He tells one individual to do, it applies to all of us.
    So how many other ways does Jesus portray me? Am I a rich young ruler who needs to sell all I have? Or am I a destitute son with no money who misses the life he had at his Fathers house?


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 597 by ringo, posted 08-28-2021 11:46 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 603 by nwr, posted 08-28-2021 9:28 PM Phat has replied
     Message 616 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:19 PM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 604 of 673 (887992)
    08-28-2021 10:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 584 by jar
    08-28-2021 8:30 AM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    jar writes:

    As Phat points out, whether we are talking about the Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Taoist faith, the actual message is all too often a Hard Teaching and that is not an easy thing to sell.

    It's much easier to sell salvation if you don't have to actually do anything to get it.

    First of all, I do not believe that the truth is relative. Granted it seems arrogant and exclusivist to believe that the religion I happened to be raised with and was taught is the closest path to absolute truth, but I digress. Honesty is the best policy and I would imagine that we will be judged not only on what we *do* vs what we could have done but on our honesty regarding our beliefs in common with our actions.

    |If it is indeed true that I will never gain points by ignoring what the character of Jesus says in the book, I will be judged accordingly.

    As for when the End Times are and how we would know, I think it is wiser to think of ourselves individually as having a set amount of time alive here on Earth and that if there is in fact a judge, He will deal with us at that point in time after we pass on. As to whether He knows what I will choose, how I will act and think, and the charge that I have been given...quite frankly I could care less. I most certainly will never say He is evil for having foreknown my destiny although it can be argued that He only knows those whom He accepts. To the others He merely says "depart from me I never knew you." Thus I can finally put that argument to rest. He knows those who are His. He does not know anyone else.

    And I can state that I believe that He does not only know Christians. He knows honest people of every faith, including atheism, who have lived their lives to the best of their abilities. As you once said, "the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both (what we do and what we could have done)


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 584 by jar, posted 08-28-2021 8:30 AM jar has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 608 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2021 2:53 AM Phat has seen this message
     Message 617 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:22 PM Phat has seen this message

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 605 of 673 (887993)
    08-28-2021 10:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 603 by nwr
    08-28-2021 9:28 PM


    Re: Hypothetically Speaking
    nwr writes:

    However, "Love thy neighbor" is supposed to apply to everyone. And the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matt 25) is intended for everyone. And those already demonstrate your failings.

    Is it a sin to love my family and close friends and perhaps my country before I start loving everyone in S.America or Africa? Is that not basic human nature?

    And just because I rant my carnal and insecure feelings here at EvC does not mean that I don't help people. I will admit that I live in fear of losing my material possessions or my life so in that sense you are correct in your assessment that I could be classified as a phony Christian.

    I will defend the fact that I am honest before you and before God Who hears and knows everything. And for the record, I highly doubt that more liberals will end up in Heaven than will Conservatives.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 603 by nwr, posted 08-28-2021 9:28 PM nwr has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 607 by nwr, posted 08-29-2021 12:30 AM Phat has seen this message
     Message 618 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:24 PM Phat has seen this message

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 606 of 673 (887994)
    08-28-2021 10:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 601 by Tangle
    08-28-2021 2:02 PM


    Tangled Up Hypotheticals
    The largest cult - Catholics - have people damned unless baptized Catholic but there are some slippery get-out clauses. If God is Catholic I think it could go either way for you Phat.
    That's silly. God is no more Catholic than He is Protestant or Buddhist. God is simply God...Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus Christ is His human character.
    Are you a betting man?
    Unfortunately yes...this is one of the addictions I struggle with.

    Whereas I, an atheist, am baptized Catholic so I reckon I have as much chance as you.
    Chance does not exist. God does not play dice with the universe.
    This religion stuff is complicated isn't it? Need a damn (?) good lawyer.
    Jesus Christ is our defense attorney. Hint: Plead guilty. You will get a lighter sentence!

    Because you guys just make up the rules as you go along, you can have whichever version suits you.
    What we humans imagine may or may not have a correlation with the actual truth and reality. This includes all scientific evidence. We can only know what is evident once it happens.

    Phat writes:

    God's only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up.

    Sounds like you think it is a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops!
    Evil needed to exist to give us a choice. If you had a kid and commanded him to stay inside, he would have no free will were the outside to not exist. He would only truly have free will if he was given the power to disobey you. Your whole idea of God being put on trial due to His ultimate responsibility for...well, everything...is hardly a relevant argument if He in fact exists. You either fall on the Rock or the Rock falls on you!

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 601 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2021 2:02 PM Tangle has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 619 by ringo, posted 08-29-2021 2:31 PM Phat has seen this message

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 611 of 673 (888001)
    08-29-2021 11:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 610 by jar
    08-29-2021 7:21 AM


    Seeing The Arguments Of Our Opponents
    And what jar erroneously believes is that God is a human creation. He simply can't understand praying in communion with and not simply TO God. He finds comfort in the BCP, which I do agree with. He has logically and rationally defined God based on what he has read, and mocks far too many Christians. Maybe it is because so many of them supported Trump and the Republicans. Maybe because they are hypocrites. Hard telling. Maybe he was schooled in evidence and logic, reason, and reality so much that he chose his path and shunned the paths I have seen.

    Most of you here are very similar in this. A kind empathetic secular humanism coupled with membership in a liberal church where you can think for yourself is very appealing to those who otherwise would be atheists.

    And I am no poster child for the truth. NWR points out my shallowness.

    But jar....seriously...I believe what I believe and don't believe that God is either created by humans or different characters in the good book.

    Your evidence stands, but you missed the whole relational thing. (You always ask how it is possible.) I am likely worse off, for as ringo says, I fight the charge that following Jesus must be difficult.

    My first job is to get my health back and my blood sugars down.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 610 by jar, posted 08-29-2021 7:21 AM jar has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 612 of 673 (888002)
    08-29-2021 11:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 609 by Tangle
    08-29-2021 3:17 AM


    Daffy Duck
    Phat can't see the argument so can't answer it, yet we keep trying.
    Oh I see the argument. I don't answer it because I honestly feel you are blinded to reality. Granted I have no objective evidence nor will I ever. What I actually do is question your arguments. I have to realize that you don't see what I see.

    I reckon we're as daft as him.
    Replies to this message:
    Well at least your blood sugar is under control. Mine is dropping....9.8% last time I checked as I had a toe amputated Friday.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 609 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2021 3:17 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 614 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2021 11:57 AM Phat has taken no action
     Message 632 by dwise1, posted 08-31-2021 3:38 PM Phat has seen this message
     Message 633 by dwise1, posted 08-31-2021 3:45 PM Phat has seen this message
     Message 657 by Percy, posted 09-02-2021 11:12 AM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 621 of 673 (888027)
    08-30-2021 9:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 620 by jar
    08-29-2021 3:43 PM


    Re: Tangled Up Hypotheticals
    I understand that "catholic" in that sense does not mean Roman Catholic or the RCC> Tangle was referring to the latter definition, I believe.

    Catholic and Apostolic Francis eloquently defends the term. As long as they keep the inclusivism within Christianity-at-large they will do fine, but when they try and synergize all religions as one, they step out of bounds. All paths may lead up the mountain but there is only one top--not many.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 620 by jar, posted 08-29-2021 3:43 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 622 by jar, posted 08-30-2021 10:15 AM Phat has replied
     Message 624 by ringo, posted 08-30-2021 11:44 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 626 of 673 (888035)
    08-30-2021 2:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 622 by jar
    08-30-2021 10:15 AM


    Re: Tangled Up Hypotheticals
    jar writes:

    Try actually reading the Bible Phat; you might even learn something.

    Quit patronizing me. Your interpretation is not the only one. There are many whom you disagree with or thumb your nose at who have also read the Bible. They see it differently from you. If you have a case that the Bible and Jesus teach all-inclusivism, you can try and present it. Keep patronizing out of it. I am no idiot.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 622 by jar, posted 08-30-2021 10:15 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 629 by jar, posted 08-30-2021 2:48 PM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15931
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 627 of 673 (888036)
    08-30-2021 2:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 624 by ringo
    08-30-2021 11:44 AM


    Re: Tangled Up Hypotheticals
    I'm not talking about Catholicism ve Protestantism. Nor any of the other clubs within Christianity. It's all one big dysfunctional family. We have a few contrarians such as you who don't even believe Jesus is an actual person, but we let you come to the picnics anyway.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 624 by ringo, posted 08-30-2021 11:44 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 630 by ringo, posted 08-31-2021 12:09 PM Phat has seen this message

      
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