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Author Topic:   When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 549 of 794 (887918)
08-25-2021 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by Phat
08-25-2021 3:22 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
Let me ask you this: If Jesus were running the place, would everyone have to sell all that they have in order to get in?
Let me ask you this: Do you read my posts at all? Because I have answered that question several times in several threads.
Jesus was pretty clear: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. What must you do to be saved? Sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't mention any exceptions.
The disciples believed Him. The widow with two mites believed Him. (Even the Old Testament widow who fed Elijah believed the message before He was born.) The early church believed Him. Etc.
Why don't you believe Him?
And why do you keep asking the same inane question when the answer will always be the same? Write it down if you can't remember it. Embroider it on a pillow.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 3:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 561 of 794 (887939)
08-26-2021 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by Phat
08-25-2021 9:24 PM


Re: Gods responsibility for everything and the judgement of such
Phat writes:
You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God...
I'm not "pinning" anything on God. The Bible says explicitly that God created evil. Even you say that God created all things seen and unseen. That includes evil. There's just no way around it.
Phat writes:
... and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other.
The "fallen angel" is not reality. It's made up.
And it has nothing to do with doubting God or mistrusting God.
Phat writes:
... putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me.
That's because you're not thinking.
Phat writes:
Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls.
Satan was not "allowed to exist". God created Satan. And God tells Satan what to do (see Job).
Phat writes:
God's foreknowledge is unknown and thus irrelevant to us.
But it's relevant to Him. If he knows evil will happen and does nothing to prevent it, He is evil. There's no getting around that.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 08-25-2021 9:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 563 of 794 (887941)
08-26-2021 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 560 by Phat
08-26-2021 11:29 AM


Phat writes:
One thing also....there would be no need for Jesus since there would be nothing that needed to be fixed.
There is no need for Jesus. There is need for the message - but people like you keep fighting it.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 08-26-2021 11:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 565 of 794 (887943)
08-26-2021 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by dwise1
08-26-2021 12:44 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
dwise1 writes:
... non-issues like Hell that we don't even believe to exist (except as metaphors)....
My dad was a fundamentalist Christian and I think he believed in a literal Hell - but he also said that we create our own heaven and hell on earth.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by dwise1, posted 08-26-2021 12:44 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 570 of 794 (887950)
08-27-2021 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
08-27-2021 12:12 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives.
Of course He is. Remember the Father/son relationship?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 12:12 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 597 of 794 (887983)
08-28-2021 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 579 by Phat
08-27-2021 11:56 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
So does this mean that in your eyes, people such as myself should, if we claim to be Christian, suck it up and pay the bill?
That's what Jesus said.
Phat writes:
Even if the world passes us by?
Jesus said that YOU should pass the world by.
Phat writes:
Even if we become the Butlers, Gardeners, and Servants of other cultures?
Don't aggrandize yourself. Jesus portrayed you in the pigsty begging for a corn cob.
Phat writes:
If so, that is a hard teaching.
Yup.
Phat writes:
Ringo even takes it a step farther and declares that anyone who claims to be a Christianshould essentially sell all that they have in order to help a world where most do not believe in Jesus.
No. I don't advocate any such thing. I simply point out that Jesus advocated exactly that.
Phat writes:
That is hard teaching!!
Yup. It's the straight and narrow way.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Phat, posted 08-27-2021 11:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 598 of 794 (887984)
08-28-2021 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by Phat
08-28-2021 3:18 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
Ringo has argued otherwise, saying that the early church did it.
The early church did it. (Note that Ananias and Sapphira were killed for not doing it.) The disciples did it, the lady with two mites did it, the widow who fed Elijah did it. And even if those are made-up stories, we have historical evidence that monastic groups (of various religions) do it to this day.
Phat writes:
He fails to see how spoiled the modern church is, however.
What? That's exactly what I'm doing, pointing out that the modern church is spoiled, ruined by apologetics. Since when is being spoiled an excuse for anything?
Phat writes:
Though I would argue that Jesus told the rich young ruler something specific to his problem with priorities....
No, you've never been able to argue that. You've made an assertion with no rationale whatsoever.
Phat writes:
My gripe with ringo is that he exempts himself from the charge that he claims I should follow.
I don't say you "should" follow it. I say you would follow it if your "belief" in Jesus had any substance.
And yes, of course I am exempt from following the instructions of somebody who doesn't exist. That's obvious. I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Phat writes:
If Jesus is real and is who the apologists say He is...
As everybody is trying to tell you, the apologists are dead wrong. Their story isn't even self-consistent.
Phat writes:
... everyone should follow His commands...not just believers.
Again, that's just nonsense. You don't follow the instructions of people you don't believe in. Why should everybody else?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 3:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 599 of 794 (887985)
08-28-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:10 AM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
The more I think about it the more I think your conclusion is (possibly) wrong.
Confirmation bias.
Phat writes:
Did God give each and every human ever born the opportunity and means to repent?
Did God offer a solution for what some CCoI refer to as original sin?
Those questions are irrelevant. The question YOU need to answer is, "Did God dig the tiger trap?"

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:10 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 600 of 794 (887986)
08-28-2021 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:25 AM


Re: The Bill Collector
Phat writes:
The only way that I would give up all that I had in order to pay a huge bill that the Federal Reserve and my own government create and inflate every day is if Jesus Himself told me that giving everything up was how this bill would be repaid.
You're conflating two different things. Nobody is asking you to give up everything you have to pay off the national debt. The national debt has nothing to do with what Jesus told you to do.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:25 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 616 of 794 (888009)
08-29-2021 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Phat
08-28-2021 9:15 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
Evidently, you think that when Jesus talks about what He tells one individual to do, it applies to all of us.
As I've asked you before, How could there be different standards for salvation? Why would the rich young ruler have to give it all up but Phat gets to keep enough to live in comfort?
And note that in Matthew 25, all nations - i.e. everybody - is judged according to what they did for the least of these. Equal judgement, not preferred judgement for Phat.
Phat writes:
So how many other ways does Jesus portray me?
He portrays you as one who says, "Lord! Lord!" - i.e. one He never knew.
Phat writes:
Am I a rich young ruler who needs to sell all I have?
Anybody who has anything to sell is.
Phat writes:
Or am I a destitute son with no money ...
You would be if you trusted Jesus and did what He said to do.
Phat writes:
... who misses the life he had at his Fathers house?
You're misusing the parable. The prodigal son didn't go home because he missed the life he had. He didn't expect to get that life back. He went home because it was his last resort. He hoped his father wouldn't watch him die.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 9:15 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 617 of 794 (888010)
08-29-2021 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by Phat
08-28-2021 10:19 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
...I would imagine that we will be judged not only on what we *do* vs what we could have done but on our honesty regarding our beliefs....
You're contradicting Jesus.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 618 of 794 (888011)
08-29-2021 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
08-28-2021 10:25 PM


Re: Hypothetically Speaking
Phat writes:
Is it a sin to love my family and close friends and perhaps my country before I start loving everyone in S.America or Africa?
Yes.
Phat writes:
Is that not basic human nature?
I thought you were the one who said that basic human nature is sinful.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 619 of 794 (888012)
08-29-2021 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Phat
08-28-2021 10:36 PM


Re: Tangled Up Hypotheticals
Phat writes:
God is no more Catholic than He is Protestant or Buddhist.
You're being dishonest. You just said two posts ago that:
quote:
...I do not believe that the truth is relative. Granted it seems arrogant and exclusivist to believe that the religion I happened to be raised with and was taught is the closest path to absolute truth....Message 604
Which is it? Is God relatively Catholic or not?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Phat, posted 08-28-2021 10:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by jar, posted 08-29-2021 3:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 623 of 794 (888030)
08-30-2021 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by jar
08-29-2021 3:43 PM


Re: Tangled Up Hypotheticals
jar writes:
... one holy catholic and apostolic Church;
Fun fact: the church that I grew up in calls itself the Apostolic Church of Pentecost. It was pretty anti-Roman-Catholic then; I don't know about today.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by jar, posted 08-29-2021 3:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by jar, posted 08-30-2021 12:38 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 624 of 794 (888031)
08-30-2021 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by Phat
08-30-2021 9:17 AM


Re: Tangled Up Hypotheticals
Phat writes:
As long as they keep the inclusivism within Christianity-at-large they will do fine, but when they try and synergize all religions as one, they step out of bounds.
You need to back that up.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Phat, posted 08-30-2021 9:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by Phat, posted 08-30-2021 2:21 PM ringo has replied

  
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