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Author Topic:   CATO Institute had a big IMMIGRATION AND NATIONAL IDENTITY survey, April 27, 2021
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 31 of 137 (888197)
09-09-2021 8:50 PM


Percy's support for border walls documented.
From SIDE ORDERS Forum.
The Trump Presidency thread
Post 2774
No one meant all walls are racist
....
we should build walls
Percy on El Paso's wall
Post 2775:
I would think they'd need a wall or some kind of border security strategy
Post 2775
I hope everyone's in favor of border security

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 1:37 AM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 09-10-2021 10:13 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 32 of 137 (888199)
09-10-2021 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by LamarkNewAge
09-09-2021 8:50 PM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
LNA’s descent into dishonesty continues.
Here are links to the two posts
Message 2774
Message 2775
Note also that the issue of walls being “racist” was brought up by LNA - who was also trying to argue that the Democratic Party was calling for full amnesty for all illegal immigrants.
Let us also note that border security is not just about illegal immigration. Smuggling - especially drugs smuggling - is also an issue.
Finally let us note that LNA is continuing the far right strategy of conflating legal and illegal immigration. The Cato institute study is largely about legal immigration and border security should not be any obstacle to that.
Fuller quotes here:
Message 2774
That's just an issue you made up. The actual issue is that we should provide legal constitutional due process to those applying for asylum or refugee status, or to those who are in the country illegally.
I was against Obama's deportation policies then, and I'm still against them. I think many people feel the same way.
Again, no one meant all walls are racist. It's Trump's walls that are racist because he wants to build them not because they're the best border security solution but because they're a symbol of that racism for his base.
You're obviously getting your statements of what Democrats believe from Republicans. What Democrats want, what most reasonable people want, is appropriate border security for each stretch of border. Wherever we need walls we should build walls.
I, and I hope many others, will oppose all inhumane and antihumanitarian treatment of people at the border, including children.
Message 2775
El Paso is in far western Texas where the Rio Grande peters out. I would think they'd need a wall or fence or some kind of border security strategy there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-09-2021 8:50 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 09-10-2021 8:20 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:44 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 35 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:54 AM PaulK has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 33 of 137 (888200)
09-10-2021 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
09-10-2021 1:37 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
There has long been an existing wall in El Paso. They've been there and they done that decades ago.
Border security is not anything new. And breaches in border security is not anything new.
And so far no wall has been a major deterrent to smugglers.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 1:37 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:58 AM jar has not replied
 Message 91 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-11-2021 1:44 AM jar has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 34 of 137 (888203)
09-10-2021 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
09-10-2021 1:37 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
I was the one in favor of amnesty.
And you are dishonestly twisting Percy's response
He was attacking my accusations that the Democratic party was not doing enough to help immigrants. He did not like my positive references to Reagan's immigration views.
I proved Hillary Clinton was in favor of deporting children during the large amounts of migration during 2013-2014.
(I was happy she seemed to oppose such, based on her response to Jorge Ramos in the 2016 Univision debate)
(PERcy denied she was ever in favor of deportation during the 2014 "crisis")
(Percy denied her 2016 opposition to deportation of children amounted to allowing children to ultimately remain here. He said it was just about "due process", so ask him for clarity)
I was considering opposition to deportation of children a "good thing", to make it short.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 1:37 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:02 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 35 of 137 (888205)
09-10-2021 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
09-10-2021 1:37 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
And I was angry that the Democratic party was only talkingbabout offering amnesty to the 1.4 million children migrants.
The Democratic party talking line was all about the "Dreamers" and "children".
I constantly, during the last 4 years, said the Democratic party sold out (politically) the other 10 million immigrants vulnerable to deportation. Democrats threw 1st generation immigrants (my favorite people) under the bus.
(And amnesty was never a radical position, until the Democrats made it one. That is a fact. In 2016, 81% of Texas 2016 voters, supported a pathway to citizenship for ALL illegal immigrants. Only 15% opposed. This was the actual exit poll, from the day Trump got 52% against Clinton. I happily trumpeted that poll data)
So you are a very dishonest person, PaulK.
Get the heck out of a discussion if all you have to bring is lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 1:37 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:12 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 36 of 137 (888207)
09-10-2021 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
09-10-2021 8:20 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
Percy said there was a "need" for walls wherever a "natural barrier" (like a river) was not present.
People like Percy made Trump's wall possible.
I said that walls are a racist symbol.
(I did not say that walls were not already present in places, mind you)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 09-10-2021 8:20 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 09-10-2021 10:29 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 37 of 137 (888208)
09-10-2021 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 8:44 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
I was the one in favor of amnesty.
Irrelevant.
quote:
And you are dishonestly twisting Percy's response
Now that is a falsehood, and an obvious one. You will note that I was the one who provided links and more complete context.
quote:
He was attacking my accusations that the Democratic party was not doing enough to help immigrants. He did not like my positive references to Reagan's immigration views.
Percy was taking a more moderate position than your idea that illegal immigrants should be given automatic amnesty. I note that you don’t say a thing about legal immigrants in the post Percy was replying to. Which should really be the first concern in “supporting immigrants”. Fair and just treatment of illegal immigrants is still important - but Percy supports that, too.
quote:
(PERcy denied she was ever in favor of deportation during the 2014 "crisis")
Not in either of the posts you cited. The closest is:
I don't know if it's accurate or not, just that you're unable to support what you say. You just completely bollocks up your claim that Clinton favored detention by excerpting from an article that never mentioned detention.
Or did you mean this?
Fifth, nobody cares what Clinton said four years ago.
quote:
I was considering opposition to deportation of children a "good thing", to make it short.
You were arguing for open borders, and trying to pretend that the Democratic Party was more favourable to the idea than is justifiable based on your own quotes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:44 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:11 AM PaulK has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 38 of 137 (888209)
09-10-2021 9:06 AM


For the record, the CATO study is about all 1st generation immigrants.
That thread, the Trump Presidency, was infact the place dwise was referencing when he, earlier, stated we talked about this before.
I was the one who brought up the fact that 1st generation immigrants pay $63 billion more in taxes than they get in social ssf spending programs.
PaulK lies when he says that the CATO study is not about illegal immigrants.
It is about all illegal and legal 1st generation Americans.

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:25 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 39 of 137 (888211)
09-10-2021 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by PaulK
09-10-2021 9:02 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
You are confusing multiple issues discussed.
I said that Percy had no real immigration strategy, back then.
(He tends to take the official Democratic party position)
I found out he had a love of walls, in short time, however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:02 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 40 of 137 (888212)
09-10-2021 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 8:54 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
And I was angry that the Democratic party was only talkingbabout offering amnesty to the 1.4 million children migrants.
Which does not justify misrepresentation or conflating legal and illegal immigration.
Nor does it counter the fact that you seem to be in favour of financial limitations on immigration - and call Democrats “anti-immigration” for opposing them (Message 26). (And I’d still love to know how the government would make illegal immigrants pay an immigration tax - how are they supposed to identify them as immigrants?)
quote:
The Democratic party talking line was all about the "Dreamers" and "children".
And there were sensible reasons for that.
quote:
I constantly, during the last 4 years, said the Democratic party sold out (politically) the other 10 million immigrants vulnerable to deportation. Democrats threw 1st generation immigrants (my favorite people) under the bus.
There are plenty of first generation legal immigrants. How are they “thrown under the bus”? Or are they not your “favourite people” at all?
quote:
(And amnesty was never a radical position, until the Democrats made it one. That is a fact. In 2016, 81% of Texas 2016 voters, supported a pathway to citizenship for ALL illegal immigrants. Only 15% opposed. This was the actual exit poll, from the day Trump got 52% against Clinton. I happily trumpeted that poll data)
A pathway to citizenship isn’t the same as a blanket amnesty.
quote:
So you are a very dishonest person, PaulK.
Funny how you can only make unsupported accusations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:54 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:22 AM PaulK has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 41 of 137 (888214)
09-10-2021 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by PaulK
09-10-2021 9:12 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
You are ignorant of how people, without Social Security numbers, can fill out a form to pay taxes.
Your comments about me 'conflating' llegal and illegal immigrants are idiotic. Find something else to nit pick over.
(Like I am going to argue with you over what I mean when I say "immigrant")

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:33 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 42 of 137 (888215)
09-10-2021 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:06 AM


Re: For the record, the CATO study is about all 1st generation immigrants.
quote:
I was the one who brought up the fact that 1st generation immigrants pay $63 billion more in taxes than they get in social ssf spending programs.
Which includes legal immigrants.
quote:
PaulK lies when he says that the CATO study is not about illegal immigrants.
I did not say that. I said that it was largely about legal immigration.
Here is a link to the article on the report Cato Institute
There is one section mainly about illegal immigrants. But the points about immigration levels, about the immigration process, about hiring immigrants are all about legal immigrants.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:06 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:56 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 43 of 137 (888217)
09-10-2021 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:22 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
You are ignorant of how people, without Social Security numbers, can fill out a form to pay taxes.
Or I realise that there are ways around that. Such as using fake numbers or those issued to other people.
quote:
Your comments about me 'conflating' llegal and illegal immigrants are idiotic
Well now we’re seeing who is dishonest. You obviously do it. It is obviously a major problem in your position. So it is obviously important to raise it. When you say “1st generation immigrants” do you mean all of them or only the illegals? If you mean the latter you should say so. If not, then I’m still waiting to hear how 1st generation legal immigrants were “thrown under the bus”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:22 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:53 AM PaulK has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 44 of 137 (888218)
09-10-2021 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
09-10-2021 9:33 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
On the thrown under the bus issue:
First of all, understand that I tend to look at public opinion polls that gauge the larger views of society.
You earlier said that I made it look like Democrats are more supportive of open borders than they actually are. You were taking my poll readings about Americans having divided opinions on the rights of children to migrate here, and then you magically that into me supposedly saying the DNC and official Democratic office holders are somehow opposed to deportation of children.
When it comes to the latter, I would never assume such a thing. The political class is going to be a bundle of soundbites and contradictions, full of people Percy attempts to imitate.
When it comes to the Americans, there has to be caution in reading polling data. American support for ANYTHING is tenuous and often public views change on something, when the national political parties change their view. One example is the drop in support for "amnesty" (your words), from 80% support in 2016, to anywhere from 35% to 55% support today. The public views changed because the Democratic party leadership started speaking out against it, back in 2017.
As for your insistence that need to demonstrate the fact that 1st generation Americans are thrown under the bus, understand that first generation Americans are all immigrants. It is a fact that there will be 1 million immigrants (or lower) every year. The immigration levels affect the future immigration picture. Therefore the prospective 1st generation Americans-in-waiting are affected. The First Generation American issue is an idea, a living ideal, that is based on a hypothesis centered around the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:33 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 10:10 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 45 of 137 (888220)
09-10-2021 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by PaulK
09-10-2021 9:25 AM


Re: For the record, the CATO study is about all 1st generation immigrants.
I am talking about the cost of first generation immigrants study.
It was in my immigration thread, from 2017. I thought I just saw it in the Trump Presidency thread.
The study found ALL first generation Americans pay, collectively, $63 billion more to the government than they take out.
dwise referenced this in his first post, here. But without a link.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 9:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 10:15 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
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