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Author Topic:   COVID vaccine works - we're saved!
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 205 days)
Posts: 5755
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 136 of 515 (888210)
09-10-2021 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
09-09-2021 10:20 AM


Just because the Right has decided to support the virus doesn’t mean that the science isn’t being done

The virus and the vaccine do not have a political party. The right has made no such choice. I guess you forgot that Trump got all this under way.

Thanks for proving my point about this being political, thanks to people like you.

No, I did not “bypass your point”. I pointed out that the vaccine is saving lives and went on to point out relevant issues. The fact that vaccinated people are less likely to catch and spread the virus is relevant - that is not the case with Marek’s disease in chickens. I’ll grant that people shouldn’t take the vaccine as a license to return to pre-COVID behaviour - but that isn’t a problem with the vaccine.

Right now the unvaccinated are the major problem

And you bypassed my point.....again.

Well I’m glad you recognise that your opinions don’t deserve respect. And thank you for not inflicting them on us, even for a short while. I raised rational points against your argument and you just ignored them

No you haven't and you implied my motive, "that I want people to die". Stop lying.

The fact that you are scaremongering about the vaccine undercuts those assertions

Facts are not scaremongering. Are you incapable of factual discussion?

No, you are NOT near herd immunity. Herd immunity requires something in the range of 80-88% immune. (Wikipedia)
Only 60% of the total population of New York City is fully vaccinated (71% of adults) and rates are worse outside the city.

Spreading doubt about the vaccine will not help

Sorry, that's not what Fauci is preaching.
Dr. Fauci: How we'll know when we've reached herd immunity with Covid

We will never reach herd immunity, since the vaccine doesn't make you immune. You expect me to believe the people who have been lying to us for 2 years now? Let me go over some of the lies that I lived through in real time:
There is no person to person transmission
This did not come from a lab
We did not fund gain of function research
Herd immunity will stop Covid
18 days to flatten the curve
Wearing 1 disposable mask a week is ok

I can go on and on. Again, I remind you I am not anti-vax. I just want to be realistic. We are not saved.

I took the first shot of the vaccine and it almost killed me. Now it's mandated and my healthcare system won't write me an exemption (because of politcal bullshit). Everyone does not have to be vaccinated.

This whole pandemic has been nothing but one bad decision after another. Saying we are saved is a joke.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 09-09-2021 10:20 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2021 4:23 AM riVeRraT has taken no action

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 137 of 515 (888213)
09-10-2021 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by riVeRraT
09-10-2021 8:46 AM


The evolution of antibiotics and the evolution of vaccines are indeed similar. They are both synthesised by humans in the lab. Now the bug that's the center of all that attention is the beneficiary of real natural selection and, with that superior force, always stands the high ground in the fight.

You do know antibiotics and vaccines are man-made, right?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by riVeRraT, posted 09-10-2021 8:46 AM riVeRraT has taken no action

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 205 days)
Posts: 5755
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 138 of 515 (888216)
09-10-2021 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Percy
09-09-2021 5:59 PM


The data is unambiguous that the vaccine is saving lives. Of all people hospitalized with covid, less than 5% of those who die are vaccinated

You are also missing my point.

Then you have to man up when people note its ignorance

It's factual. Big pharma is making millions. I find it funny how liberals will bash big corporate driven by profit, yet ignore the profit of this vaccine. You should have more of an open mind and question everything.

Despite working in large facilities all my working life, I picked up remarkably little about the management and operations of large facilities. In the same way, a person will learn remarkably little about health and medical issues from working in facilities management at a health care facility.

Yes becuase people like yourself have trouble understanding the physical plant. However I am not afforded that same luxury in my job. I must understand certain things about health in order to do my job correctly, especially infection control. I have had to teach staff like you on several occasions what they are responsie for, and what I am.

Many people in many industries have been and still are being placed at risk. Nationally, extremely few elder care facilities were prepared to deal with a virus like covid. The virus swept through assisted living facilities and nursing homes everywhere all across the country. Nationally about 8% of residents died

Not once, but twice. The first time they refused to use the Javits center, and the hospital ship because that would make Trump look good. The second time, there was no excuse at all, they should have been prepared for the second wave that they themselves were predicting.

The politics game being played now is killing people.

This was never said by anyone knowledgable. What is true is that if everyone around the world masked up for real for a month it would not just flatten the curve but put an industrial sized dent in it. And herd immunity, which given the delta variant could be somewhere north of 85%, would make any region relatively safe until invaded by hardier variants.

Fauci is not knowledgable?

I agree with you here, but it will never be a reality. The world is not capable of quarantining. I knew this from the start. If we get a real dangerous virus, we are all dead.

And since there was never enough vaccine for the world, the more virulent delta strain has made the situation even worse

Yep, and the virus will continue to evolve. Let's hope it won't get worse. It is a very real possibility that vaccines will make it worse.

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 09-09-2021 5:59 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Percy, posted 09-10-2021 5:00 PM riVeRraT has taken no action
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 139 of 515 (888219)
09-10-2021 9:54 AM


A touch of reality from Hidalgo County Texas
A touch of Reality from yesterday in Hidalgo County Tx:

356 New Covid-19 cases:
15 more deaths:

0-11 age: 96 kids
12-19 kids: 65
20's: 48
30's: 47
40's: 44
50's: 21
60 and older: 35

So 300 Covid Cases in the younger kids and adults and 56 Covid Cases in the 50 and over segment.

It's pretty clear from the numbers that our modern intelligent youth are capable of taking care of themselves and so no masking or vaccination requirements could be warranted.


My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20834
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(5)
Message 140 of 515 (888259)
09-10-2021 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by riVeRraT
09-10-2021 9:27 AM


I think a discussion between you and LamarkNewAge would be a real hoot.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by riVeRraT, posted 09-10-2021 9:27 AM riVeRraT has taken no action

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 141 of 515 (888266)
09-10-2021 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
09-10-2021 9:54 AM


Re: A touch of reality from Hidalgo County Texas
I don't have an age an break down but for the last week new cases in Socorro county are 6 and deaths are 0 as has been the case for the last several months.

Texas sucks plain and simple, if the virus don't kill you, the lack of heat a/c will.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1317
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 142 of 515 (888286)
09-11-2021 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by riVeRraT
09-10-2021 9:27 AM


It is a very real possibility that vaccines will make it worse.

Just like the flu vaccines have made things worse for the past 75 years or so. Oh, wait.....


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(4)
Message 143 of 515 (888289)
09-11-2021 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by vimesey
09-11-2021 3:56 AM


But that's what riVerRat is going on about. We have to take flu vaccines every year because every time you get a flu shot the flu goes into evolution mode and changes inside your cells into a meaner badder virus that goes out into the world to infect people next year.

Since this can happen in about 0.01x10really big negative number of cases we gotta STOP the damage by not vaccinating the 99.99999+-∞% that will benefit by staying alive.

And you can't treat a virus with antibiotics because that makes the virus go into evolution mode too.

So the best thing one can do for a flu is to do the Trump thing and drink horse de-wormer and stick an ultra-violet bulb in your rectum.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by vimesey, posted 09-11-2021 3:56 AM vimesey has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 144 of 515 (888775)
10-05-2021 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by riVeRraT
09-10-2021 9:08 AM


I missed this, hence de,Ahmed reply,

quote:
The virus and the vaccine do not have a political party. The right has made no such choice. I guess you forgot that Trump got all this under way.

I remember that Trump’s response was incoherent. I also note that the Right is strongly opposed to vaccine and masking mandates. DeSantis in Florida and Abbott in Texas are being problematic.

quote:
Thanks for proving my point about this being political, thanks to people like you.

That’s right, don’t blame the people who’ve made it political, just blame the people who point it out.

quote:
And you bypassed my point.....again.

And again, I didn’t bypass it, I refuted it.

quote:
No you haven't and you implied my motive, "that I want people to die". Stop lying.

Of course the fact that the vaccines effects are quite different in ways that directly relate to the issue is a rational point. The fact that the researcher who wrote the original study agrees is also a rational point. And I didn’t imply a motive either. But what motive would fit the spread of misinformation - obvious misinformation- that could lead to death ?

quote:
Facts are not scaremongering. Are you incapable of factual discussion?

You are scaremongering and you’re the one refusing to engage in factual discussion. The facts are that the two vaccines have very different effects, and claiming that they will produce similar results is scaremongering. The differences are very relevant.

quote:
Sorry, that's not what Fauci is preaching.

I read your link and there doesn’t seem to be much difference.

quote:
We will never reach herd immunity, since the vaccine doesn't make you immune.

No, if we don’t reach herd immunity it will be because of people like you opposing the effort.

quote:
Let me go over some of the lies that I lived through in real time:
There is no person to person transmission
This did not come from a lab
We did not fund gain of function research
Herd immunity will stop Covid
18 days to flatten the curve
Wearing 1 disposable mask a week is ok

Since the best evidence is that it didn’t come from a lab, calling that a lie is hardly honest. I don’t see one demonstrated lie in the lot (and that means proving that it was said, and that it was untrue to the best of our knowledge at the time it was said)

quote:
I can go on and on. Again, I remind you I am not anti-vax

You are just against the COVID vaccines. You’ve proved that with your scaremongering. And doubling down on it and lying after it was exposed.

quote:
I took the first shot of the vaccine and it almost killed me. Now it's mandated and my healthcare system won't write me an exemption (because of politcal bullshit). Everyone does not have to be vaccinated.

Everyone caring for the elderly does need to be vaccinated. Care homes are the last place you want an outbreak. Criticise Cuomo (and Boris) all you like for sending COVID patients into care homes - but don’t insist that the residents should be put at risk because you don’t want to be vaccinated.

quote:
This whole pandemic has been nothing but one bad decision after another

But here you are opposing the right decision, on spurious grounds.
Vaccine mandates in the care sector are a necessity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by riVeRraT, posted 09-10-2021 9:08 AM riVeRraT has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20834
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 145 of 515 (888848)
10-11-2021 10:33 AM


How Are We Supposed To Feel About Dead Antivaxers?
The article What do all these stories of vaccine denial deaths do to our sense of empathy? discusses how people react to the deaths of those who refuse to get vaccinated. Part of the article focuses on a subreddit forum called the Herman Cain Award, which declares someone a "winner" if they've been vocal online about their anti-vaccine views and then died of the virus.

The forum has gotten aggressive. It used to focus on the famous or at least sort-of famous, but now it takes on anyone. In addition to declaring someone a winner they'll post on the person's social media sites and those of their family and friends.

It does seem a bit much, but how is one supposed to feel about someone who declares that getting vaccinated is a personal choice that doesn't affect anyone else, especially when everyone who is anyone in epidemiology has been spreading the message that the unvaccinated are ten times more likely to become vectors spreading the virus.

Obviously some people are victims of misinformation and/or lack the necessary background to understand the issue, and the article makes the point that persuasion is emotional, not factual.

But despite that government experts provide the necessary confidence in making a pro-vaccine choice, many anti-vaccine people have made it political and declared that that's not their government and they're not their experts.

Herman Cain was a person of considerable accomplishment. He was a businessman, chair of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City, an advisor to Bob Dole's presidential campaign, and a presidential candidate himself. On June 20 of last year he attended a no-mask Trump rally in Tulsa and died of covid-19 a little over a month later on July 30.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 10-11-2021 11:18 AM Percy has seen this message
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 146 of 515 (888849)
10-11-2021 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Percy
10-11-2021 10:33 AM


Re: How Are We Supposed To Feel About Dead Antivaxers?
I can only speak for myself but in such cases I feel pity; an almost overwhelming pity.

My feeling for living antivaxers though is quite different. There I feel utter and complete disgust and consider such people as lower than whale snot and almost as despicable as the pathetic Right to Lifers.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 10-11-2021 10:33 AM Percy has seen this message

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 147 of 515 (888850)
10-11-2021 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Percy
10-11-2021 10:33 AM


Re: How Are We Supposed To Feel About Dead Antivaxers
I don’t think we should be happy or even worse gloat over a death.

But it is absolutely right to publicise these deaths to counter the misinformation.

Those who have repented would - certainly should - approve, I think.

Those who have not aren’t entitled to a veto.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 10-11-2021 10:33 AM Percy has seen this message

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 148 of 515 (888851)
10-12-2021 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by jar
10-11-2021 11:18 AM


Re: How Are We Supposed To Feel About Dead Antivaxers?
Just to note:

Most anti-vaccine people tend to be from racial minority groups (Puerto Ricans in New York, for example), and it comes from a fear that the ****** majority is trying to kill them.

And it is sincerely held.


This message is a reply to:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2227
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 149 of 515 (888853)
10-12-2021 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by LamarkNewAge
10-12-2021 9:42 AM


Re: How Are We Supposed To Feel About Dead Antivaxers?
LNA spouts out
Most anti-vaccine people tend to be from racial minority groups (Puerto Ricans in New York, for example), and it comes from a fear that the ****** majority is trying to kill them. ...

Do you have a source? Seems an odd conclusion. Most of the anti-vaxxers out here in the sticks are white. They also believe we never went to the moon, 9/11 was an inside job and so on.


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20834
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 150 of 515 (888856)
10-13-2021 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by xongsmith
10-12-2021 2:58 PM


Re: How Are We Supposed To Feel About Dead Antivaxers?
But LNA wasn't totally out in left field. Minority groups do tend toward vaccine hesitancy due to past experience and an inherent distrust of white solutions. Racial diversity was an important goal of the vacine clinical trials, but most people aren't aware of papers like Racial Diversity within COVID-19 Vaccine Clinical Trials: Key Questions and Answers.

Where LNA went wrong was in saying that minorities comprise "most" (his word) anti-vaxers.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by xongsmith, posted 10-12-2021 2:58 PM xongsmith has seen this message

Replies to this message:
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