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Author Topic:   AI - Do humans think algorithmically?
ringo
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Posts: 20015
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 31 of 53 (888237)
09-10-2021 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
09-10-2021 8:43 AM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
riVeRraT writes:

Self destruct sequences are not "suicide"...


Of course they are.

riVeRraT writes:

...and are not initiated by depression.


Suicide doesn't have to be initiated by depression. A soldier may jump on a grenade to save his comrades. Somehow, suicide is heroic when the good guys do it but crazy when the Japanese or Muslims do it.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 09-10-2021 8:43 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2021 1:01 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7041
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 32 of 53 (888245)
09-10-2021 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
09-10-2021 12:07 PM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
Somehow, suicide is heroic when the good guys do it but crazy when the Japanese or Muslims do it.

Somehow? It seems pretty clear to me.

The former suicide is intended to save lives while the later is intended to murder.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 09-10-2021 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 09-10-2021 1:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20015
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 33 of 53 (888247)
09-10-2021 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by AZPaul3
09-10-2021 1:01 PM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
AZPaul3 writes:

The former suicide is intended to save lives while the later is intended to murder.


I hope you're being ironic.

The kamikazes were not trying to "murder" any more than the SBD's and TBDs were trying to murder. Both sides were trying to win the war and, in the long run, save lives.

Edited by ringo, : fixed quote


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2021 1:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2021 1:43 PM ringo has replied
 Message 38 by xongsmith, posted 09-12-2021 12:35 AM ringo has replied
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 10-25-2021 10:11 AM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7041
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 34 of 53 (888248)
09-10-2021 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
09-10-2021 1:19 PM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
I don’t see the irony.

The soldier that jumps on a grenade does so to save the lives of his crew. The kamikaze and the radical muslim suicide bomber do so to kill the enemy and sew the horror of shock and terror that facing a human bomb elicits in people, or to get 79 virgins or whatever the bounty is this year.

Are the acts really the same in your view?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 09-10-2021 1:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 09-11-2021 11:50 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 672
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 35 of 53 (888253)
09-10-2021 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by riVeRraT
09-10-2021 8:43 AM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
rR writes:

Self destruct sequences are not "suicide" and are not initiated by depression.

Our current understanding of mental processes is still far too primitive to be able to delineate the differences (if such differences even exist) between a conscious act of suicide due to depression and a self destruct action of a computer program. The fact that there are antidepressant drugs, simple molecules with known formula and structure, that may intercede to avoid such suicide might suggest that the neurological programs that lead to depression and suicide could contain “if……then…..” subroutines.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by riVeRraT, posted 09-10-2021 8:43 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20015
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 36 of 53 (888297)
09-11-2021 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by AZPaul3
09-10-2021 1:43 PM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
AZPaul3 writes:

The kamikaze and the radical muslim suicide bomber...


The kamikaze was much like the soldier who jumps on a grenade. He wasn't about "sowing the horror of shock and terror that facing a human bomb elicits in people." He wanted to destroy an enemy ship before it destroyed the ships on his side. Typical soldier, slightly different attitude toward death.

AZPaul3 writes:

... radical muslim suicide bomber...


Which is not what I said. It's a typical right-wing knee-jerk reaction to "Muslim", which is what I said.

But my point was that riVeRraT was wrong about suicide. It isn't something that a machine can not do.

Suicide is more complicated than some people think.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 09-10-2021 1:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 09-11-2021 1:22 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 7041
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 37 of 53 (888302)
09-11-2021 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
09-11-2021 11:50 AM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
Which is not what I said. It's a typical right-wing knee-jerk reaction to "Muslim", which is what I said.

It IS what I said. Me. Not you. And I said it because in this world today, when this subject comes up, the muslim suicide bomber is the poster boy of the genre.

To broach the subject in this context has nothing to do with any right-wing crazies. It is a reality of this world.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 09-11-2021 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 09-12-2021 2:09 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
xongsmith
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Posts: 2268
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 38 of 53 (888318)
09-12-2021 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
09-10-2021 1:19 PM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
Ringo wrote as part of a reply:
the SBD's and TBDs

Sorry - I lost what these acronyms were somewhere down the road.

Suicide Bomb Destroyers
Terrorist Bomb Destroyers

???


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 09-10-2021 1:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-12-2021 2:15 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20015
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 39 of 53 (888326)
09-12-2021 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
09-11-2021 1:22 PM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
AZPaul3 writes:

... in this world today, when this subject comes up, the muslim suicide bomber is the poster boy of the genre.


Exactly. But they are NOT the poster boys of suicide in general.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 09-11-2021 1:22 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 10-25-2021 10:03 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20015
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 40 of 53 (888327)
09-12-2021 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by xongsmith
09-12-2021 12:35 AM


Re: Suicide is a survival strategy (for species).
xongsmith writes:

ringo writes:

the SBD's and TBDs


Sorry - I lost what these acronyms were somewhere down the road.

Suicide Bomb Destroyers
Terrorist Bomb Destroyers


I just watched Midway the other day.

SBD = dive bomber ("Scout Bomber Douglas")
TBD = torpedo bomber ("Torpedo Bomber Douglas")


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

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 Message 38 by xongsmith, posted 09-12-2021 12:35 AM xongsmith has not replied

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(1)
Message 41 of 53 (888731)
10-01-2021 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
07-26-2021 5:33 PM


The term “emergent properties” seems to be the phrase used to express the assumption that these things will just occur if enough complexity/processing-power is present.

My experience is that "emergence" is a vague magic word/just so story used to explain anything by people of a certain reductionist bent.

I know little neurology, but in physics at least not only can properties of the whole be completely independent of any property of the parts, but in the extreme case properties of the whole possessing a value requires that the parts are without properties.

So I see no reason for the mind to be emergent from or just a matter of additional complexity over standard computational processes.


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 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2021 5:33 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-02-2021 1:02 PM Son Goku has replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 672
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 42 of 53 (888737)
10-02-2021 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Son Goku
10-01-2021 8:12 PM


...properties of the whole be completely independent of any property of the parts, but in the extreme case properties of the whole possessing a value requires that the parts are without properties.

Could you give one or two examples of this. I have a physics background, so details are fine. (Also, I'm a reductionist, not by rational deduction, but by necessity since I'm simply too simple minded to understand anything that can't be reduced to basic causes.)

Would an airplane made of legos be an emergent property?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Son Goku, posted 10-01-2021 8:12 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2021 3:17 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(1)
Message 43 of 53 (888742)
10-02-2021 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AnswersInGenitals
10-02-2021 1:02 PM


The spin of an atom along a certain axis being well-defined requires that the individual particles of the atom to have no well-defined properties at all.

In general a piece of matter has no well-defined number of particles in it, just a probability distribution for what number it might be measured as possessing. Even this probability distribution is observer dependent not objective.

Those are just two examples.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-02-2021 1:02 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-02-2021 4:45 PM Son Goku has replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 672
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 44 of 53 (888746)
10-02-2021 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Son Goku
10-02-2021 3:17 PM


Am I missing something? Not having well defined, i.e., single valued, values of a property is not the same as not having that property. The distance from LA to NY is a range of values. But that range is defined and LA and NY do have the property of being some distance apart. The set of IQs of people posting on EvsC (apparently a bimodal distribution) has many values, but is still a defined property.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2021 3:17 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Son Goku, posted 10-02-2021 5:19 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 29 days)
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 45 of 53 (888749)
10-02-2021 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by AnswersInGenitals
10-02-2021 4:45 PM


The individual particles don't have any values at all for their properties, not even a range like the LA-New York case.

The IQ case is not analogous as it is multi-valued by being a population distribution. For a single particle there isn't such a population to draw on to constitute a multi-valued set.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Admin, posted 10-03-2021 10:40 AM Son Goku has not replied

  
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