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Author | Topic: The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Let us consider your syllogisms - or just the first since the others don’t add anything.
quote: A is not known to be true (at the least it has required a lot of investigation to make sense of many things and some are still not understood) B seems to be very likely false - certainly there is no good reason to believe it or to think that the mere existence of an observer could force the universe to “make sense according to reason and logic” Further if minds must themselves “make sense according to reason and logic” (and I would suggest that they do at least as much as the universe does) then your argument creates a vicious circularity. Indeed all you can say for B is that in the absence of an observer there would be nobody to make sense of the universe - but that does not suggest that the observer makes the universe behave differently at all.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Modern mathematics can certainly be seen that way, but that gets away from the utilitarian origins. But logic keeps things simpler.
quote: You’re just repeating your assumptions without explaining again. If changing language doesn’t change reality then surely the sensible belief is that language is a tool that we use to describe reality rather than something which governs it. So again, why should the existence of a mind make a difference? There doesn’t seem to be any reason to think so other than your assumptions about how logic works. But there’s no good reason to believe this either. If the truths of logic are necessary truths then there is no need for logic to “govern” anything. Reality must conform to logic because it is literally impossible for it not to. And when we consider the fact that logical truths are tautologous it is easy to see how they are necessarily true.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: “May” is not the same as “will”. That the universe might be comprehensible does not mean that it is. We hope that it is, but it is not yet time to say that it is.
quote: That is just pointless nitpicking. You assert that the existence of minds somehow makes the universe obey the laws of logic. But you can’t give any reason to think that’s true.
quote: That is obviously incorrect. “Therefore there is a very real problem here” would be the correct conclusion. After all, you claim that only things “governed by the rules of logic and meaning” make sense.
quote: You know it would help if you understood what I said. I pointed out that that is very different from what you claim. This is an equivocation which makes your syllogism invalid.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Well thank you for agreeing with me. Since this negates your argument that really seems to be it.
quote: It isn’t meaningfully limited by logic for the reasons you give above, I.e it is not logic that makes the conclusion true - it is the truth of the premises that does that.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I’ve given good reasons to think that they are false. You haven’t given a good reason to think that they are true.
quote: Simply asserting that I’m wrong is not much of an argument. I repeat my assertion that logic doesn’t impose any limits at all. The truth of the premises - which will involve physical reality to at least the same extent the conclusion does - is what makes the conclusion true,
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I don’t think that a different phrasing of essentially the same statement is a very important issue. But what is important is that you provide some reason to think that your assertion is true - because it seems to be obviously false.
quote: So God doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s fine, it just makes your argument even more nonsensical. But that is hardly my problem.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Obviously false. Since logical truths are tautologous, our symbolic manipulations control nothing, they only let us work out what is independently true. So logic imposes no limitations at all. The conclusion is true regardless of logic. Equally this shows that the presence of an observer is unnecessary. A tautology will be true regardless of the presence of a mind to identify it as being true,
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I didn’t say that God didn’t make sense - I just pointed out that was what you were claiming.
quote: So you are now claiming that things that “violate the laws of meaning and logic” can make sense. OK. Since you now assert that your syllogism is unsound you’d better stop using it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Because the conclusion is contained in the premises. Asserting the truth of the premises is asserting the truth of the conclusion. Logic only helps us see truths that are already there. As I said, it’s a mental tool,
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I’ll work harder at getting you to understand rather than leave you caught in the traps of your assumptions. True or false: if something is true, it’s true.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Because what is true, is true. Is that really so hard to understand?
quote: I have yet to see any meaningful limit imposed by logic in the universe.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Then in fact you don’t care about whether anything really is true. To count something as knowledge you just need to be certain of it - without even a good reason for that certainty.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I missed this because it was a reply to a message written 4 years ago,
So, you address the fact that:
Which is why the world came to an end in the 2nd Century BC (Daniel). And the 1st Century AD (the Gospels) With a quote from Romans that doesn’t directly address either point and with no explanation. Which is hardly a good answer.
quote: My apologies. The correct reference is Deuteronomy 18:22
If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. (NRSV)
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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So you say:
quote: Then you repeat the quote from Deuteronomy, an irrelevant quote from Ezekiel and a quote from Jonah that contradicts Deuteronomy. You don’t even bother to address Jeremiah, All without explanation. What’s the point of that? [ABE]Oh wait a minute I think I see it! The Ezekiel verses contradict Deuteronomy, too - at least as you’re reading them. So you’ve added two more contradictions of Deuteronomy. The math is 1 + 1 + 1 = 0 - a clever denial of the Trinity. It really needs more explanation but it really is quite a clever bit of anti-Christian work. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Jonah 3:10 is quite clear:
10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (NRSV) So, no.
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