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Author Topic:   Phat Unplugged
Phat
Member
Posts: 15692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 76 of 171 (888649)
09-25-2021 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
09-24-2021 10:35 AM


jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
nd so yet again all Phat can provide is the fact that he cannot or will not address what others post.
I have tried before. You respond by either insulting my intelligence or attempting to reframe the argument and dismissing what I say.

You may have learned how to win arguments through attrition but you know less than you think you do about reality.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 09-24-2021 10:35 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 09-25-2021 3:44 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 77 of 171 (888650)
09-25-2021 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
09-25-2021 3:31 PM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
Phat writes:

You may have learned how to win arguments through attrition but you know less than you think you do about reality.

Then provide the reality based evidence, model, method, process or procedure that will let any determine that they are actually and factually communing with God.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 09-25-2021 3:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 2:51 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 78 of 171 (888652)
09-26-2021 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
09-25-2021 3:44 PM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
Im not talking about God. There is no way to "prove" Him. I'm talking about my predictions for global finance and how you ignorantly mock them.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 09-25-2021 3:44 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 09-26-2021 4:25 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 80 by jar, posted 09-26-2021 7:51 AM Phat has responded
 Message 82 by nwr, posted 09-26-2021 9:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17032
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 79 of 171 (888653)
09-26-2021 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
09-26-2021 2:51 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
quote:
I'm talking about my predictions for global finance and how you ignorantly mock them.

Given that your understanding of economics doesn’t even include the basics of supply-and-demand your doomsaying doesn’t seem very credible without evidence. Which you don’t have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 2:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 80 of 171 (888654)
09-26-2021 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
09-26-2021 2:51 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
Phat writes:

Im not talking about God. There is no way to "prove" Him.

Nonsense Phat. What questions did I raise in the very post to which you replied?

Phat writes:

I'm talking about my predictions for global finance and how you ********** mock them.

That is because the predictions you post are ********, dishonest and simply like all apologetics designed to con the people who have never learned how to think.

No one here doubts we are facing financial problems bu the biggest issue is folk like you who do not learn the basics or history or economics or reality and instead rely on snake oil salesmen and con artists.

Do you understand that if the debt ceiling is NOT raised the result will be that the dollar IMMEDIATELY becomes worthless for any international transactions.

Your grocery store will but be able to restock any product that is not fully sourced in the USofA; fully sourced from the initial raw materials to the labor to the processing to the packaging to the delivery.

Can you list the products your store sells that would meet those conditions?

Phat the problem is not the amount of debt the US holds; it is that the US population has never been taught how to think.

And yet, the debt will get paid.

It's up you folk like you to decide whether you prefer to pay the debt by changing behavior or by starvation and violence.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 2:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 10:37 AM jar has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20398
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 81 of 171 (888655)
09-26-2021 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Phat
09-25-2021 3:15 PM


Re: Engaging & Enabling
Phat writes:

Started the day eating well. Ha a salad.

Salads are a healthy food choice, until they're not. Lettuce is an excellent delivery system for cheese and croutons and calorie rich dressings. With them salads are very filling but no longer healthy. Without them and with only a light vinaigrette hunger strikes within the hour, and then you'll seek out snacks to tide you over until your next meal. The diet then becomes a willpower diet, meaning it will work for as long your willpower against hunger holds out. For most people that's not very long.

Is it possible that working in a grocery store is an enabling situation for you?

Not sure I follow. What is it I am enabling?

Poor food choices - you're surrounded by them.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Phat, posted 09-25-2021 3:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5828
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 82 of 171 (888657)
09-26-2021 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
09-26-2021 2:51 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
I'm talking about my predictions for global finance and how you ignorantly mock them.

Your predictions about global finance are mostly evidence of your gullibility. You easily fall prey to panic peddlers.

Why are you so concerned about a possible dollar crash? Even if your predictions turn out to be correct, you probably won't live long enough to experience it -- unless you take better care of your health.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 2:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 83 of 171 (888659)
09-26-2021 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
09-26-2021 7:51 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
jar writes:

No one here doubts we are facing financial problems bu the biggest issue is folk like you who do not learn the basics or history or economics or reality and instead rely on snake oil salesmen and con artists.

Do you understand that if the debt ceiling is NOT raised the result will be that the dollar IMMEDIATELY becomes worthless for any international transactions.

Your grocery store will but be able to restock any product that is not fully sourced in the USofA; fully sourced from the initial raw materials to the labor to the processing to the packaging to the delivery.

Can you list the products your store sells that would meet those conditions?

Phat the problem is not the amount of debt the US holds; it is that the US population has never been taught how to think.

And yet, the debt will get paid.

It's up you folk like you to decide whether you prefer to pay the debt by changing behavior or by starvation and violence.

You bring up a point I want to emphasize. The problem of the debt is not due to any one political party or ideology. An argument can easily be made that the debt was raised over the years under the administrations of both Democrats and republicans. Debt is debt...whether it be from a tax cut or a stimulus. The Fed is creating money out of thin air. Now....I am no obstructionist. I agree that the debt ceiling needs to be raised in order to keep the dollar solvent among other things. The Republicans would be idiots to try and monkey with this issue under the guise of political brinksmanship. If they do, we may actually crash. Crashes are caused by loss of confidence. What I will say, however, is that one method that debt to GDP has been reduced is by allowing moderate inflation and keeping interest rates at zero or even negative. It appears that this will be the chosen strategy. The problem is that the US now is not the US coming out of World War II.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 09-26-2021 7:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-26-2021 10:41 AM Phat has responded
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 09-26-2021 10:59 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 86 by PaulK, posted 09-26-2021 11:08 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 87 by anglagard, posted 09-26-2021 5:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 84 of 171 (888660)
09-26-2021 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
09-26-2021 10:37 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
What is the backing for the dollar?

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 10:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 09-27-2021 11:34 AM jar has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20398
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 85 of 171 (888661)
09-26-2021 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
09-26-2021 10:37 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
We can't help you. Your mind is in thrall to conspiracy theorists and disaster mongers.

You've said all this before. We rebutted it before, but you just repeat it all over again. There's no help for you. You're doomed to be one soldier in an army of Chicken Littles.

If you sounded the alarm about something real, like erosion of our democratic institutions or climate change, then people might start listening to you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 10:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17032
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 86 of 171 (888662)
09-26-2021 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
09-26-2021 10:37 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
quote:
You bring up a point I want to emphasize. The problem of the debt is not due to any one political party or ideology. An argument can easily be made that the debt was raised over the years under the administrations of both Democrats and republicans. Debt is debt...whether it be from a tax cut or a stimulus.

Failing to distinguish between correct management and mismanagement is a problem. When the economy is in trouble it is widely accepted that extra borrowing is necessary. When the economy is in good health the debt should be paid down. Debt taken on solely to maintain spending while reducing income is folly. That last point is one conservatives should agree with (Margaret Thatcher did!). It seems that many Republicans do not.

So, yes there are distinctions related to how the money raised is spent and they are important.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 10:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2338
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 87 of 171 (888669)
09-26-2021 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
09-26-2021 10:37 AM


Re: jar manipulates and attempts to frame arguments
Phat, the USA paid off all its national debt in 1837. What else memorable happened in 1837? The economic crash of 1837.

Some debt is necessary otherwise all funding for anything would have to be cash, which there was not enough to properly invest in people or equipment, not now and definitely not 1837.

Were you sick every time this was brought up in school?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 09-26-2021 10:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15692
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 88 of 171 (888674)
09-27-2021 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
09-26-2021 10:41 AM


Production Backs The Dollar
Though I knew that the answer was "production" as well as the faith and trust of the people, I googled a few sources to find the one that seemed most reliable to my intuition.
This guy caught my eye:
What ‘Backs’ The Dollar? Easy: Production

Here is what he said:

quote:
Some people falsely assume that money is ‘backed’ only by something that already exists – something that exists before new money is issued. They imagine a fixed quantum of gold, for example, or some other commodity or precious metal. When these people hear pundits or politicians attacking the Fed for ‘printing money,’ they accordingly assume it’s a bad thing – something that automatically causes … inflation.

But this is a mistake – a mistake with huge consequences. And it’s not hard to see why.

Let’s start with inflation. The thing to remember about inflation is that it’s a relation. Say that again: Inflation is a relation. To simplify slightly, it’s a relation between the quantity of money on the one hand and the number of available goods and services on the other hand. Hence the colloquial definition of inflation as ‘too much money chasing too few goods.’


I know that some of you will criticize me for not putting my answer in my own words but at this point, I don't understand some of the concepts enough to know the words.

I knew that Gold no longer backed the dollar. What worries me about inflation and the actions of the Fed are that real wage values will decrease even as workers increase (assuming the opportunity for production) and your prediction that we will all make fine gardeners and servants of a rising global middle class looks likely. That is not something that I will easily accept and seems to be something to oppose and fight. Why the hell should my position in life be downgraded simply because the US is stupid?

Edited by Admin, : Fix quoted section.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-26-2021 10:41 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by dwise1, posted 09-27-2021 1:06 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 90 by jar, posted 09-27-2021 2:05 PM Phat has responded
 Message 91 by Percy, posted 09-27-2021 2:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4739
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 89 of 171 (888675)
09-27-2021 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
09-27-2021 11:34 AM


Re: Production Backs The Dollar (clean up suggestion)
Friendly clean-up suggestion.

Where you start the quote, you also start italics which you never close, so the forum software cannot see the /quote tag.

If you remove that i tag for italics (or else close it as you had intended), then the quote tags should work correctly.

Personally, I've taken to always using the Preview button before submitting my reply. That catches most of my own tag typos.

 

 
Here is that part of Phat's Message 88 directly above with format corrections (ie, not his entire message, so still refer back to the original):

Phat writes:

This guy caught my eye:
What ‘Backs’ The Dollar? Easy: Production

Here is what he said:

quote:
Some people falsely assume that money is ‘backed’ only by something that already exists – something that exists before new money is issued. They imagine a fixed quantum of gold, for example, or some other commodity or precious metal. When these people hear pundits or politicians attacking the Fed for ‘printing money,’ they accordingly assume it’s a bad thing – something that automatically causes … inflation.

But this is a mistake – a mistake with huge consequences. And it’s not hard to see why.

Let’s start with inflation. The thing to remember about inflation is that it’s a relation. Say that again: Inflation is a relation. To simplify slightly, it’s a relation between the quantity of money on the one hand and the number of available goods and services on the other hand. Hence the colloquial definition of inflation as ‘too much money chasing too few goods.’



I know that some of you will criticize me for not putting my answer in my own words but at this point, I don't understand some of the concepts enough to know the words.

Once Phat has made the corrections himself, I will remove this from mine. Please reply to Phat's own message, not to this one.

Edited by dwise1, : ABE: QS of portion of Phat's message with format corrections


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 09-27-2021 11:34 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 90 of 171 (888676)
09-27-2021 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
09-27-2021 11:34 AM


Re: Production Backs The Dollar
Actually it is "The full faith and confidence in the Government" Phat.

The dollar has value internationally ONLY as long as other nations have faith and confidence in the US Government.

What might be a method that faith and confidence might be measured?


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 09-27-2021 11:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 09-28-2021 1:24 AM jar has responded

  
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