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Author Topic:   Testing The Financial Apologists Conmen
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6020
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 31 of 38 (888824)
10-08-2021 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
10-08-2021 7:16 PM


Re: Nomi Prins
You are right, Phat. We may indeed be headed in that direction. You think you can do anything about it? You think your insignificant (though fee generating thus income generating for someone else, thank you very much) investment can alter anything except to boost the seller's income?

Even in concert, Phat, do you think the American middle class can protect itself from such a thing by buying up a few pounds of gold while all the rest of their meger wealth evaporates?

You're along for the ride, Phat. Haven't you anything other to do with your money? I'm sure jar and ringo can suggest some.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 10-08-2021 7:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20323
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 32 of 38 (888826)
10-08-2021 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
10-08-2021 1:29 PM


Re: Nomi Prins
Your "ignore responses, repeat claims" approach is a waste of people's time. You've been doing this for a while now, for my own posts most recently completely ignoring Message 16 and Message 20, and responding to Message 17 but not addressing a single point. If you're not going to respond to what people say, why should anyone respond to you?

You remind me of people who don't realize they've been idiots until they end up on ventilators and realize that maybe they should have listened and gotten the vaccine. In your case I don't think it's that you haven't learned to listen but that you haven't learned how to achieve an understanding of things you don't yet understand. Instead of expending the effort necessary to understand something you follow whoever captures your fancy. Entire industries have been built upon reliance that people like you exist, like religion, Dutch tulip futures, and South Sea Company stock.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 10-08-2021 1:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6020
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 33 of 38 (888833)
10-09-2021 4:31 AM


And I regret not spending more time at the office.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15641
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 34 of 38 (888837)
10-09-2021 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
10-07-2021 9:49 AM


Addressing Old Posts
OK Percy I will give it the old college try.

Message 16-- I own my car, though it is a clunker and a money pit. (2002 Buick). The price of used cars has shot up exponentially just in the past year and I dont have much of a nest egg.

Percy writes:

Apologies for assuming your financial mismanagement was across the board. Should I also assume your condo fees are paid up? How's your credit card debt? Is your vehicle worth less than the loan? Sorry, it's just hard to believe that someone who can be taken in so easily about gold is otherwise spic-n-span financially.

Gold is not an investment. It is an insurance policy to protect against bad investments and financial corrections. AZPaul3 is correct, however in that a man of my limited means will never outbid the wealthy people who can afford diversification. Im better off buying stable groceries to save up and use once inflation does its work on our prices. Current conservative predicions average 6% a year for 3 years followed by more stable radings, but as they found out in the late seventies, inflation is not easily stopped without raising interest rates. What other way can it be stopped? And keep in mind that were it not for debt there would be no inflation nor deflation.

Message 17 --

Percy writes:

Your quote claims that "Each one percent rise in the interest rate would increase FY 2021 interest spending by roughly $225 billion," and that is obviously false. When interest rates rise then payments on interest can only increase if the debt is refinanced. The average maturity period for financial instruments funding the national debt is over five years, so only about 20% of the debt would be refinanced in any given year. If interest rates were to rise by 1% then over the next year only $5.8 trillion of our national debt would be refinanced, and a year from now our annual service of the debt would only have risen by $58 billion, not $225 billion.

I learn slowly through trial and error but I also am intuitive beyond what most critical thinkers dare not do. Granted I am anxious yet fascinated by doomsday prognostications for reasons yet unknown. It feels good thinking that the majority of people do not see what I see. My challenge now is figuring out what if anything I actually DO see. So lets keep talking.

Message 20--

Percy writes:

It isn't that I'm so sure I'm right as that I'm able to muster facts and reason in support of what I think true and you're not.

Im still learning which facts are relevant and which are part of a con.

I think that you think that everything is cyclical and that life goes on year after year with out any major reset, apocolyptic or otherwise. But we can both agree that global warming is potentially apocolyptic and they seem slow at addressing that. I would further argue that human nature is intrinsically self serving rather than empathetic. I dont want to see the US middle class and myself suffer.

We have gone off the rails since 2007 and I'm not sure we will ever return to where we were as a nation and indeed globally with secure financial resources.

ringo writes:

I've told you flat-out that I couldn't care less about the US middle class. If you read my posts it wouldn't just be a vague suspicion.

And yet you would love for all of the Christian Middle class to give all that they have (and join your ranks in so doing) simply so you dont have to work so hard struggling to pay bills and eat! I see too many people who would rather steal than get a minimum wage job. And its flat-out evil evil evil.

ringo writes:

Our beloved Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, is constantly telling us that he's "working very hard" to buck up the middle class "and those struggling to join it". I, for one, am not struggling to join the middle class.

Yes we know. You want to sit around at the park with the other homeless people and enjoy life. If you know any of them who steal, you would do well to tell them to cut it out.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 10-07-2021 9:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by nwr, posted 10-09-2021 4:37 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 10-10-2021 11:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 10-10-2021 12:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 38 by anglagard, posted 10-10-2021 1:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5803
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 35 of 38 (888838)
10-09-2021 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
10-09-2021 3:22 PM


Re: Addressing Old Posts
And keep in mind that were it not for debt there would be no inflation nor deflation.

This is surely false.

We have gone off the rails since 2007 and I'm not sure we will ever return to where we were as a nation and indeed globally with secure financial resources.

I blame the Republicans. They run up debt, and then they block the attempts of Democrats to increase taxes to pay down that debt.

Responding to ringo, Phat writes:

And yet you would love for all of the Christian Middle class to give all that they have (and join your ranks in so doing) simply so you dont have to work so hard struggling to pay bills and eat!

That's not what I read ringo as saying.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 10-09-2021 3:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19251
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 36 of 38 (888844)
10-10-2021 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
10-09-2021 3:22 PM


Re: Addressing Old Posts
Phat writes:

I learn slowly through trial and error but I also am intuitive beyond what most critical thinkers dare not do.


You have that backwards. Critical thinkers are the ones who dare - to defy their intuition.

Phat writes:

And yet you would love for all of the Christian Middle class to give all that they have...


Will you ever learn to read? It's JESUS who wants you to do that. Jesus H. Tap-dancing Christ, the guy you claim to believe in.

Phat writes:

...(and join your ranks in so doing) simply so you dont have to work so hard struggling to pay bills and eat!


That's a vile thing to say. I worked fairly hard all my life for relatively little money and you have the gall to scoff at me giving a few dollars away. I don't expect to gain ANYTHING from you doing what your "leader" wants you to do.

Phat writes:

You want to sit around at the park with the other homeless people and enjoy life.


How is that a bad thing?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 10-09-2021 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20323
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 37 of 38 (888845)
10-10-2021 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
10-09-2021 3:22 PM


Re: Addressing Old Posts
Phat writes:

OK Percy I will give it the old college try.

In your response you only quoted me to launch into remaking your old points. You never addressed anything I said.

Message 16-- I own my car, though it is a clunker and a money pit. (2002 Buick). The price of used cars has shot up exponentially just in the past year and I don't have much of a nest egg.

If you "don't have much of a nest egg" then you have no business messing with speculative financial vehicles like gold. Gold mostly makes money for dealers, not their customers.

Gold is not an investment. It is an insurance policy to protect against bad investments and financial corrections.

Since you "don't have much a nest egg", you have no meaningful investments that need protection from financial corrections.

I'm better off buying stable groceries to save up and use once inflation does its work on our prices.

One of the significant contributors to inflation is wages. If inflation causes significant price increases, wages will increase, too.

Consider this. Too many dollars chasing too few goods causes price inflation. Once prices have increased to the point where excess dollars have been soakded up then sales decrease because there's no longer any excess dollars. Decreasing sales cause prices to drop or at least stop rising. Price inflation is self limitiing.

But wage increases can keep price inflation going by providing an increasing number of dollars to chase the price of inflated goods. It's known as an inflationary spiral. Artificially slowing business activity by raising interest rates is the way inflationary spirals have traditionally been halted, as you yourself note later.

Current conservative predictions average 6% a year for 3 years...

Here's an inflation projection from Statista - The Statistics Portal showing nothing higher than 2.5% for the next five years. This projection is from April and likely the projections are a little higher now, but not by much:

You're being scaremongered, and even if inflation ever did rise to 5% or 10% annually your wages would rise, too.

Message 17 --
Percy writes:

Your quote claims that "Each one percent rise in the interest rate would increase FY 2021 interest spending by roughly $225 billion," and that is obviously false. When interest rates rise then payments on interest can only increase if the debt is refinanced. The average maturity period for financial instruments funding the national debt is over five years, so only about 20% of the debt would be refinanced in any given year. If interest rates were to rise by 1% then over the next year only $5.8 trillion of our national debt would be refinanced, and a year from now our annual service of the debt would only have risen by $58 billion, not $225 billion.

I learn slowly through trial and error...etc...

None of that and what follows has anything to do with what I said. I explained in pretty good detail why that article is wrong. Look at it this way. Say you buy a nice used car for $20,000 and finance it with a fixed-rate 5% 5-year loan that costs you $377/month. But let's say that by the end of the year inflation has really taken hold and car loans go up to 10%. How much will you then pay on your car loan. Still $377/month, right? It's not going to change, right?

So if interest rates rise, why do you think the federal government's loan payments would increase for existing loans? Yes, it would increase for loans that mature and have to be refinanced, but less than 20% of the federal governments loan portfolio has to be refinanced every year. The interest rate would only increase on less than 20% of the national debt, not all of it.

...but I also am intuitive beyond what most critical thinkers dare not do.

You are not intuitive. All you do is respond to emotional appeals like scare mongering ("the coming inflationary apocalypse will destroy civilization"), and that's how you decide who to listen to.

For reasons having nothing to do with facts or rational thinking you've decided that the YouTube guys are right, and nothing can talk you out of it. In particular facts and reason cannot talk you out of it because it wasn't facts and reason that talked you into it in the first place. You find these YouTube guys appealing, and because you lack the math skills and reasoning capabilities to see the fallacious nature of what they're telling you, and because they're skilled at making emotional appeals, you fall for it, and then you come here and fill posts with their lines of malarkey.

You'd probably find my arguments a lot more appealing if they were accompanied by predictions of the end of civilization.

Granted I am anxious yet fascinated by doomsday prognostications for reasons yet unknown.

You're aware you're a sucker for "doomsday prognostications" yet you come here and repeat the nonsense anyway, and then defend it here at length for days and days on end. Please stop.

It feels good thinking that the majority of people do not see what I see.

You've just defined delusional.

My challenge now is figuring out what if anything I actually DO see. So lets keep talking.

There is no point in continued discussion with you about gold and inflation. Your blood sugar addled brain is hopeless on this topic.

Message 20--
Percy writes:

It isn't that I'm so sure I'm right as that I'm able to muster facts and reason in support of what I think true and you're not.

Im still learning which facts are relevant and which are part of a con.

A lifetime spent in puzzlement at what makes the world work is unlikely to be remedied now.

I think that you think that everything is cyclical and that life goes on year after year with out any major reset, apocalyptic or otherwise.

Yeah, right, I never heard of WWI, the Depression, WWII, the Vietnam War, the World Trade Center attack, Iraq, Afghanistan, or the Great Recession of 2008.

But we can both agree that global warming is potentially apocalyptic and they seem slow at addressing that.

Climate change has the potential to end "life as we know it" in many parts of the world. The world lacks the resolve to cut back on greenhouse gases in the necessary timeframe. We're going to need other solutions, and radical ones may have to be considered, like space sunshades.

I don't want to see the US middle class and myself suffer.

Who does, but your messianic mission is misinformed.

We have gone off the rails since 2007 and I'm not sure we will ever return to where we were as a nation and indeed globally with secure financial resources.

You're ranting again.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 10-09-2021 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2335
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 38 of 38 (888846)
10-10-2021 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
10-09-2021 3:22 PM


Empty Bragging
Phat writes:

I learn slowly through trial and error but I also am intuitive beyond what most critical thinkers dare not do. Granted I am anxious yet fascinated by doomsday prognostications for reasons yet unknown. It feels good thinking that the majority of people do not see what I see. My challenge now is figuring out what if anything I actually DO see. So lets keep talking.

I think Percy has done a fine job of showing the error in your economic thinking, as Ringo has shown your limited understanding of Christianity so I will not cover those topics here. Rather I would like to point out this the above sounds just like Donald Trump. Essentially you are saying your mental abilities far exceed our meager talents and that your intuition is more valuable than their knowledge, Like Trump, you are also claiming more insight into any subject than all PhDs ever without having to read, directly study, or take formal coursework.

Your case should be studied as a classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

We already have Mike the Wiz claiming the mantle of Wiley E, Coyote, super-genius, we don't need two.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 10-09-2021 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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