Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9077 total)
81 online now:
AZPaul3, dwise1, nwr, ringo, Tanypteryx (5 members, 76 visitors)
Newest Member: Contrarian
Post Volume: Total: 894,019 Year: 5,131/6,534 Month: 551/794 Week: 42/135 Day: 19/23 Hour: 0/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Trump and Trump supporters keep using the Y2K Fallacy, and it is driving me crazy
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3345
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 136 of 190 (889390)
11-23-2021 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by dwise1
11-23-2021 10:18 AM


This subtopic reminds me of a cartoon that I've saved away somewhere.

At an Al Gore presentation, one person in the audience turns to another and says, "But what if we save the planet and improve our lives immensely and it turns out to all be for nothing?"

Yep, I have that one saved too.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by dwise1, posted 11-23-2021 10:18 AM dwise1 has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19612
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 137 of 190 (889391)
11-23-2021 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Sarah Bellum
11-21-2021 1:26 PM


Sarah Bellum writes:

As far as I can see, the "fact-checking" in both places consists of some posters looking at other peoples' posts and doing some research (or not, as the case may be) before making replies to dispute (or agree with) those posts.


Look a little farther. As I said in Message 123, they provide links to the actual facts.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Sarah Bellum, posted 11-21-2021 1:26 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Sarah Bellum, posted 12-27-2021 6:46 PM ringo has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20829
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


(6)
Message 138 of 190 (889393)
11-23-2021 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Sarah Bellum
11-21-2021 1:26 PM


Sarah Bellum writes:

As far as I can see, the "fact-checking" in both places consists of some posters looking at other peoples' posts and doing some research (or not, as the case may be) before making replies to dispute (or agree with) those posts.

As Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said, "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."

Some opinions are supported by unequivocal facts and therefore carry great weight. Then there's a whole spectrum of lesser opinion ranging all the way down to baseless speculation. We'll be suffering for years to come from the Trump years of alternative facts. A generation of Republican politicians have learned that to many people facts don't matter, and they're unscrupulous enough to take advantage of it. Democrats haven't a chance.

Everyone from all points of the political spectrum should be very concerned about the Republicans not for political reasons but because facts matter.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Sarah Bellum, posted 11-21-2021 1:26 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by xongsmith, posted 11-24-2021 9:13 AM Percy has seen this message
 Message 148 by Sarah Bellum, posted 12-27-2021 6:49 PM Percy has seen this message

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2224
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 139 of 190 (889394)
11-24-2021 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
11-23-2021 4:18 PM


Percy writes:
Everyone from all points of the political spectrum should be very concerned about the Republicans not for political reasons but because facts matter.

i was almost ready to exclaim "All Facts Matter!" as a new slogan when i remembered Kellyanne Conway's "alternative facts" shitbomb.

so maybe it should be "Real Facts Matter!"


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 11-23-2021 4:18 PM Percy has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20829
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 140 of 190 (889471)
11-28-2021 11:25 PM


Movie Quote
From an old movie called Born Yesterday: A world full of ignorant people is too dangerous to live in.

—Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-29-2021 11:11 AM Percy has seen this message

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3345
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 141 of 190 (889478)
11-29-2021 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Percy
11-28-2021 11:25 PM


Re: Movie Quote
From an old movie called Born Yesterday: A world full of ignorant people is too dangerous to live in.

Unfortunately, it's the only world we have. As an observer it sure looks like people are getting stupider.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Percy, posted 11-28-2021 11:25 PM Percy has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 11-29-2021 11:41 AM Tanypteryx has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19612
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 142 of 190 (889480)
11-29-2021 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Tanypteryx
11-29-2021 11:11 AM


Re: Movie Quote
Tanypteryx writes:

As an observer it sure looks like people are getting stupider.


Homer Simpson said that whenever he learned something new, it pushed something else out of his brain. Maybe that applies collectively too: When one person becomes smarter, somebody else becomes stupider, to balance it out.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-29-2021 11:11 AM Tanypteryx has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by AZPaul3, posted 11-29-2021 4:06 PM ringo has seen this message

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6735
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 143 of 190 (889487)
11-29-2021 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
11-29-2021 11:41 AM


Re: Movie Quote
Ok, I'm in a depressed mood but, ringo, thank you for give this old man the sweet remembrance of a past once forgotten.

Homer may be famous for it but I used it before Groening even knew how to spell Homer.

I would tease the little girls that with all I had to learn that week my brain had to cast off ballast and I feared in the wreckage I would lose the memory of her sweet attentions. She would kiss the leaking memories back into my head, my eyes, my nose, my lips.

Thank you, ringo.

So very much thank you.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 11-29-2021 11:41 AM ringo has seen this message

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 794
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 144 of 190 (890141)
12-27-2021 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by vimesey
11-22-2021 3:37 PM


You're missing the distinction between convincing people of things that do not conflict with their current views and convincing people of things that run contrary to their current views.

If you make predictions which turn out to be alarmist hype you may not have problems with people who already believe you (they just shrug it off with the reasonable statement that predictions of the future are never 100% certain). On the other hand, people who are skeptical of you in the first place may have their preconceptions confirmed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by vimesey, posted 11-22-2021 3:37 PM vimesey has taken no action

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 794
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 145 of 190 (890142)
12-27-2021 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by AZPaul3
11-22-2021 3:58 PM


But the whole point is to convince people to change their behavior so you CAN save the environment. If you shoot yourself in the foot by making predictions that turn out to be alarmist hype, people won't change their behavior and you've endangered the environment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by AZPaul3, posted 11-22-2021 3:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by AZPaul3, posted 12-27-2021 9:05 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 794
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 146 of 190 (890143)
12-27-2021 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Percy
11-23-2021 9:34 AM


I think this started with a discussion about global warming predictions that turned out to be inaccurate.

It's an interesting question, a case of "does the end justify the means?" when you think of how to persuade people to save the planet. Maybe it's like a game of chess. You can sacrifice a lot, if you succeed in checkmating your opponent. If however, you don't succeed, you're in a worse position.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 11-23-2021 9:34 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Taq, posted 02-04-2022 4:42 PM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 164 by Percy, posted 02-05-2022 4:06 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 794
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 147 of 190 (890144)
12-27-2021 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by ringo
11-23-2021 11:06 AM


That's silly. People posting on Facebook post links all the time, to actual facts as often as posters do here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by ringo, posted 11-23-2021 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by ringo, posted 12-28-2021 11:43 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 794
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 148 of 190 (890145)
12-27-2021 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
11-23-2021 4:18 PM


I was just speaking to the fact-checking on various online forums, not to party affiliations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 11-23-2021 4:18 PM Percy has seen this message

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6735
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 149 of 190 (890152)
12-27-2021 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Sarah Bellum
12-27-2021 6:43 PM


Ideas For Sale
If you shoot yourself in the foot by making predictions that turn out to be alarmist hype, people won't change their behavior and you've endangered the environment.

You haven’t looked at American society.

These are Americans. For so many of them if you lie to them they stay lied to. They’re too stupid to change. That’s why we have an anti-vax problem, a flat earth problem, a religion problem and a republican party problem. There are even people here that still believe Richard Nixon was not a crook.

This is a feature of whole segments of American society. Truth and reality don’t matter. Their unshakable faith in what they can be made to believe is all they will ever recognize. If you tell these dweebs (early enough and often enough) that with climate change they are in grave personal danger, they will see grave personal danger everywhere. Some prediction that didn’t quite pan out … yet … will not alter their view. No foot, no shooting.

I would rather use that super power for good than for stupid. Scare the crap out of them until they become avid climate warriors.

Edited by AZPaul3, : title

Edited by AZPaul3, : spln


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Sarah Bellum, posted 12-27-2021 6:43 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-27-2021 10:50 PM AZPaul3 has taken no action
 Message 155 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-29-2022 3:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 150 of 190 (890154)
12-27-2021 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by AZPaul3
12-27-2021 9:05 PM


Re: Ideas For Sale
A "flat earth problem"?

Who actually says that the earth is flat?

Who on earth ever heard of Nixon? That might be a real issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by AZPaul3, posted 12-27-2021 9:05 PM AZPaul3 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-27-2021 10:52 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 12-28-2021 11:45 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022