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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Percy
Member
Posts: 20411
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 902 of 909 (886285)
05-13-2021 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 887 by Phat
05-12-2021 9:44 AM


Re: Right To Bear Arms Re-examined
Phat writes:

How would you defend the right to bear arms in today's modern and dysfunctional society?

We do not live in a dysfunctional society. The firearm death rate will climb rapidly in any society that adopts accommodative gun laws and is flooded by easy to obtain guns and lots of ads glorifying guns resulting in a gun culture where people fall in love with their guns and zealously defend their right to endanger themselves and everyone around them

If anything is dysfunctional it's the 2nd amendment. It was written in the time of muskets, and even though it's worded clearly, it apparently wasn't clear enough because the Supreme Court found room to misinterpret it in favor of a right to gun ownership by nearly everyone despite that the militias that were the justification no longer exist.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 9:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20411
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 903 of 909 (886286)
05-13-2021 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 879 by Phat
05-12-2021 12:25 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Phat writes:

Some of us resist a government that forces laws on us.

What is a law that is forced on you? One you don't like? If one disagreed with the "right turn on red" law, does that mean it was forced on them?

No government makes laws that 100% of the people agree with. We live in a representative democracy. We don't resist a legitimately elected government just because it passes laws we don't like. We instead vote for people who will pass laws more to our liking.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 12:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20411
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 904 of 909 (886288)
05-13-2021 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 894 by jar
05-13-2021 6:49 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
jar writes:

The evidence is out there Percy, real evidence not infotainment.

And yet you can't find any evidence to put in a message. When you say "the evidence is out there" you're using almost identical language to the Trump crazies claiming the election was stolen. Okey, great, the evidence is out there. Go find it.

You go on to attack some claims (again without evidence) that were never made, or at least not ones that I ever made. I won't be defending things I never said.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 894 by jar, posted 05-13-2021 6:49 AM jar has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4740
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 905 of 909 (886289)
05-13-2021 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 890 by Phat
05-12-2021 10:36 AM


Re: Violence and root causes.
Perhaps, but we cant simply have 51% of the people voting in laws that 100% are required to follow.

Two big problems with that:

  1. In a democracy, it's "the majority rules." You take a vote and everybody does what the majority decided through that vote. That's how democracy works!

  2. We don't have a complete democracy (eg, as Athens did and had to go to extremes to corral its citizens in to get them to vote; ie, it didn't work), but rather a representative republic in which the laws are made by representatives who are chosen by their constituents through democratic means.

The sad situation we are in now is that through various forms of political skullduggery the representatives of a distinct minority of the population form the majority of many legislative bodies in this country.

That means that the majority of Americans are being subjected to laws imposed on them by the minority! And now we are seeing representatives of that minority making new laws to further dilute the vote of the majority thus giving even more power to that minority.

Time to do some math:


US Population 331,449,281
Non-citizens -25,000,000
--------------
Citizens 306,449,281

Proportion of population 18 and over: 76%
Eligible to vote 232,901,454

Registered Republicans -- 36,132,743 15.5% of eligible to vote
Registered Democrats -- 48,517,845 20.8% of eligible to vote
Unaffiliated or other -- 148,250,866 63.7% of eligible to vote

Presidential Vote:
for Biden -- 81,268,924 51.3% 34.9% of eligible to vote
for Trump -- 74,216,154 46.86% 31.9% of eligible to vote
for other -- 2,898,325 1.83% 1.24% of eligible to vote
Total votes -- 158,383,403 ------ 68% of eligible to vote

Republican support for Trump over party as per April 2021 poll -- 44%

Assumption:
All registered Republicans and Democrats voted (the weakest part of the assumption) and they did so by party.
Therefore:
32,751,079 unaffiliated voted for Biden
38,083,411 unaffiliated voted for Trump
2,898,325 unaffiliated voted for other
74,518,051 unaffiliated did not vote


Basically, what the numbers show is that Democrats outnumber Republicans and that the swing demographic (ie, unaffiliated and other) is surprisingly large.

Also, the Trumpian base amounts to about 44% of Republicans or about 15.9 million, about 6.8% of the total electorate (or about 10% of the electorate that had bothered to vote).

And yet the Republican politicians holding seats in both houses of Congress as well as in state legislatures are Trumpian!. And in many of those state legislatures those Trumpians control those legislatures, while in Congress they have controlled Congress in the past and they have Congress very narrowly split (and could take the Congress back in 2022) while representing only 10%!

Even if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt and allow them to be deemed as representing 46.86% of the electorate, that is still a minority! A minority making laws that adversely affect the majority!

So your complaint about the "51%" is not only contrary to how democracy works, but it is also far out of touch with reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 890 by Phat, posted 05-12-2021 10:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20411
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 906 of 909 (889414)
11-25-2021 12:16 PM


It's the guns, stupid!
Up front I'll note that the message's title is a play on Bill Clinton's slogan, "It's the economy, stupid." I'm not calling gun nuts stupid. When I call them something I call them nuts.

The Ahmaud Arbery murder trial is over and all three defendants were found guilty, most notably Travis McMichael who actually pulled the trigger and was found guilty of the additional charge of malice murder. All three men, Travis McMichael, 35, his father Greg McMichael, 65, and their neighbor William “Roddie” Bryan, 52, could spend the rest of their lives behind bars.

It all started a couple weeks before the murder when Travis McMichael called 911 to report a trespasser inside a house under construction, possibly armed. Did he report it because the "trespasser" was black? We walk through houses under construction all the time. There's a new neighborhood going up in the apple orchard next door where people from our neighborhood take walks (it's sad about the apple orchard, but that's another story). We've been taking walks through all the houses as they go up. Last month the builder was at one of the houses and gave us a tour, especially interesting to me because of the elaborate lighting control system being installed.

Of course, we're white and the builder's white (practically everyone's white in this state, not my fault - I live here because I found a job here out of college nearly half a century ago). How would the builder have felt if we were black? Were we technically trespassing? There were no "No Trespassing" signs, and a brief Internet search indicates it isn't trespassing with no signs or barriers. The only signs were prominent ones identifying the builders.

Later that same day while walking through another house the buyers came by. They gave us a tour of the ground floor and encouraged us to walk around upstairs while they began eating the eight pizzas they'd brought, eight because they knew some of the builders were arriving soon, which they did. But how would they have reacted if we were black?

That's not a fair question to ask in NH. I'm sure there's racism in the state, but because there are so few blacks here there's little opportunity to see it or for people to build up any racial animosity. If you see a black person you immediately notice them because they're so rare, but you otherwise think nothing of it. Or maybe that's just me, I don't know.

But we know there's racism in Cobb County, Georgia. There'd been some burglaries in the neighborhood, and Arbery had been seen after dark in that house under construction many times over many months (Oct. 25, 2019 until Feb. 23, 2020 when Arbery was killed), so when the McMichael's and their neighbor Roddie Bryan saw Arbery running through their neighborhood they knew that was the guy who'd been walking through that house. Presuming a connection to burglaries was a leap. They fetched a shotgun, climbed into their pickups, and took off after him. It's a mystery why they thought their burglar would run through their neighborhood in broad daylight. Maybe their reasoning came out at trial, I don't know, but I think any black person passing through their neighborhood would have drawn suspicion.

Travis McMichael made a fatal mistake when he approached Arbery while holding his gun. If an angry man of any race holding a gun approached me, I would definitely grab the gun, and that's exactly what Arbery did. By walking up to Arbery while holding his gun McMichael created the very same situation of fear he claimed justified the shooting.

The McMichaels and Bryan thought they were making a citizen's arrest, but they were mistaken. Inexplicably, citizen's arrests are legal in jurisdictions all across the country, but Wikipedia warns that anyone making a citizen's arrest risks being charged with any of a variety of crimes, like false imprisonment, unlawful restraint, kidnapping, and wrongful arrest.

Citizen's arrest only make sense under limited circumstances where you see someone actually commit a crime. A guy in a bar starts smashing beer mugs and a few people detain him until the police get there, that's a citizen's arrest.

But if you try to detain someone jogging through your neighborhood you're probably on somewhat thin legal ice, even if you know he was the same person you saw walking through a house under construction. Why was Arbery walking through that house after dark? That does seem very suspicious, but nothing was ever stolen. When I was a teenager houses under construction were a convenient trysting place though the floors were hard. Arbery was 25, not a teenager but still pretty young, so maybe he was thinking along such lines. Or maybe he was just checking out progress like people in our own neighborhood like to do, and he preferred to do it after dark because he knew a black man doing it in broad daylight would attract the wrong kind of attention.

If Travis McMichael had not had a gun then likely the three of them would have been able to detain Arbery and call the police, and the police would have given Arbery a warning about trespassing. That's it. That's all the police would have done. That's what the policeman seeking Arbery because of the calls about a trespasser would have done. If caught again he would have been arrested on a misdemeanor charge of trespassing. That's all. Trespassing is not a serious offense. Burglary, for which there's no evidence of any Arbery involvement, is more serious, but it's not a killing offense. Travis McMichael should not have been carrying a gun. He didn't need one.

That's why we need more gun control. More guns just mean more shootings. Ready availability of guns is what makes shootings so common in the United States. Like McMichael, Rittenhouse created the very situation of fear as McMichael by walking into a volatile situation with a gun. Both McMichael and Rittenhouse were right. When involved in an altercation there is the very real possibility that the gun could be taken away and used on you, or if someone else has a gun you fear that they might shoot you, so you fire first.

But remove the guns from these situations and nothing happens. Those who claim we need guns because the US is so dangerous are creating that danger themselves by making guns so easily available. Take the guns away.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : McMichael => Arbery in third to last para.


Replies to this message:
 Message 907 by nwr, posted 11-25-2021 12:25 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 908 by DrJones*, posted 11-25-2021 7:56 PM Percy has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5836
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 907 of 909 (889415)
11-25-2021 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 906 by Percy
11-25-2021 12:16 PM


Re: It's the guns, stupid!
But remove the guns from these situations and nothing happens. Those who claim we need guns because the US is so dangerous are creating that danger themselves by making guns so easily available. Take the guns away.

Yes, I totally agree with that.

When I was young, I would sometimes walk through houses under construction. So I saw this as normal curiosity.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 906 by Percy, posted 11-25-2021 12:16 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2186
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 908 of 909 (889425)
11-25-2021 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 906 by Percy
11-25-2021 12:16 PM


Re: It's the guns, stupid!
If Travis McMichael had not had a gun then likely the three of them would have been able to detain Arbery and call the police, and the police would have given Arbery a warning about trespassing. That's it. That's all the police would have done.

I think you're painting a very rosy picture in regards to what could happen when with three white men unlawfully stopping a black man. Or what would happen when the police arrive.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 906 by Percy, posted 11-25-2021 12:16 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 909 by Percy, posted 11-26-2021 9:38 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20411
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 909 of 909 (889428)
11-26-2021 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 908 by DrJones*
11-25-2021 7:56 PM


Re: It's the guns, stupid!
True. I was taking what was testified to on the stand at face value.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 908 by DrJones*, posted 11-25-2021 7:56 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
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