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Author Topic:   Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22694
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 361 of 773 (889493)
11-30-2021 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Phat
11-29-2021 11:51 AM


Re: s against us.Re: Darker Future For USA
You sound like a monster.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Phat, posted 11-29-2021 11:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18452
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 362 of 773 (889496)
11-30-2021 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by marc9000
11-30-2021 8:29 AM


Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
marc9000 writes:
One quick question Phat, has your opinion of Trump gone up at all in the past 6 months or so?
Being a businessman, Trump did nothing except delay the inevitable. I never agreed with his personality or his diplomacy, but I did realize the divide in American politics that I never knew was so pervasive. I had always liked Obama...not due to his politics or business acumen, but due to his amicable nature and expert use of words and empathy--a trait which Trump lacked. I have always labeled myself as a political moderate though many here shove me firmly into the conservative camp. One thing I do know for sure despite their insistance that I do not. The world is sliding towards cultural marxism and it will end up being the death (the last and final days) of this planet. The critics at EvC (despites some of them claiming to be true Christians) know nothing about the existence and reality of God nor do they understand that when you pump 11 trillion dollars into the US dollar it will inflate and decrease in overall purchasing power---effectively killing the US middle class. I have finally concluded that they do not care. They claim to have a heart for the welfare of the entire world and would rather see the privileged class that our early days of expansionism and freedom produced diminish. Trump befriended that class(as well as the 1% like himself, unfortunately) and postponed its inevitable demise. Ultimately, money itself will be taken from the people and made a part of a globalist system. We won't be able to take ourselves out of the banking system nearly as easily without tax consequences.
To the progressive liberals, it is as it should be. They claim that Christians are mostly far-right and mostly selfish.(We are not--we are individualistic rather than collectivists and mandatory do-gooders under the hand of a "benevolent" government.) Of course, none of them believe in original sin nor in a spiritual war. They challenge me to provide evidence and they point to the fact that it is I who am the monster and unloving towards the poor disenfranchised masses. I will admit that I am not in favor of mandatory altruism nor of government control and regulation of MY assets which I earn. In that way, I have something in common with you, marc9000. But now it is my turn. Let me ask you a question. Where do YOU stand spiritually? Beyond the context of right-wing politics, are you a believer in Jesus Christ and His eventual return? Do you see the sin in yourself as I see in myself? Do you see that the progressives substitute mandatory empathy and aid to the poor for a decision which should be individually and freely made?
Edited by Phat, : sub title

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by marc9000, posted 11-30-2021 8:29 AM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by nwr, posted 11-30-2021 2:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 364 by marc9000, posted 11-30-2021 9:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 365 by Percy, posted 12-01-2021 11:30 AM Phat has replied
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 12-02-2021 11:00 AM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6444
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(4)
Message 363 of 773 (889498)
11-30-2021 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Phat
11-30-2021 12:47 PM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
The world is sliding towards cultural marxism and it will end up being the death (the last and final days) of this planet.
Since you are so concerned about cultural Marxism, maybe you can explain what it is. I have tried a google lookup. But, as best I can tell, there's no such thing.
Given that Marx was opposed to capitalism, and thought things should be for the people at large, one might guess that cultural Marxism is just saying that culture should come from the people. But culture has always come from the people. Even the suggestion of a marketplace of ideas, such as we often hear from conservatives, effectively puts culture in the hands of the people.
So what is this cultural Marxism that troubles you? Or is it just a meaningless buzzword?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Phat, posted 11-30-2021 12:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 12-02-2021 10:30 AM nwr has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 364 of 773 (889499)
11-30-2021 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Phat
11-30-2021 12:47 PM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
But now it is my turn. Let me ask you a question. Where do YOU stand spiritually? Beyond the context of right-wing politics, are you a believer in Jesus Christ and His eventual return? Do you see the sin in yourself as I see in myself? Do you see that the progressives substitute mandatory empathy and aid to the poor for a decision which should be individually and freely made?
I'm sorry my posts don't more clearly convey my Christianity. The reason they don't is because at a forum like this, the atheist leftists often try to portray any Christian as someone who favors the imposition of all, or most, or some Levitical law into mandatory government rules. Practically no Christian conservatives do of course, they favor the traditional liberty and limited government concept that the founders (many of them Judeo-Christians) had. And that includes some basic Judeo Christian principles in how people should live and associate with one another. And it doesn't include a worship of the planet, the climate, or the government.
I think a mistake that may atheists and Christians alike make, is to not carefully consider the differences in Biblical teachings in how individuals should act, versus how societies should act as a whole. As an example, a soldier of a society who kills a soldier of another society in battle, is different from an individual killing someone in a rage. Also, from 2nd Thessalonians "if any would not work, neither should he eat". That can interpreted differently in individual situations, the difference between laziness and genuine hard times not of a person's makings. But the difference between 1) 'no work / no eat' and 2)Christ's compassion for one's neighbor - I don't think 2 involves a 3rd party (government) redistributing in the name of compassion, while skimming a chunk off the top to enrich themselves.
I'm 67, I'm now the longest-time member of a Missouri-Synod Lutheran Church. Seen several pastors come and go, baptized there as a baby, confirmed as a teenager. I'm often the go-to guy when someone has a question about some part of the church's history. Though there were a few multi year periods that I didn't attend, I've regularly attended there much more than half my life anyway. I'm active there now, building and grounds, offering counter, usher etc. Do I see sin in myself? Oh yes, in many ways. I'm working on it, not to save myself, no one can do that, I'm just trying to show faith and thanks for the salvation I have.
But the reason for my above question is that I'm seeing regret of differing degrees, in polls and news reports. Some are unhappy with Biden, but are still glad to be rid of Trump, while some Biden voters wish they'd voted for Trump. Most all of them were taking for granted what Trump did and didn't do, they were taking for granted stable oil prices, stable inflation, a presidential assertiveness that our enemies didn't like, many other things, versus what we have now. The 22 and 24 elections will be interesting. I think Trump will be there in 24, if his health holds up. As things stand now, would you vote for him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Phat, posted 11-30-2021 12:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22694
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 365 of 773 (889501)
12-01-2021 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Phat
11-30-2021 12:47 PM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
Phat writes:
Being a businessman, Trump did nothing except delay the inevitable.
Delay what inevitable? Inflation? Supply chain delays? An unending pandemic? Destruction of American institutions, particularly trust in the integrity of our elections?
I never agreed with his personality or his diplomacy, but I did realize the divide in American politics that I never knew was so pervasive.
Trump amplified the divide begun by the Tea Party, and he put Republicans firmly on a path of non-cooperative obstructionism with Democrats. The Republican test of true Republicanism has become whether you put doing ill toward the Democrats ahead of what is good for the country.
I have always labeled myself as a political moderate though many here shove me firmly into the conservative camp.
Not counting those that are delusional, you have no moderate or liberal positions.
The world is sliding towards Cultural Marxism...
According to Wikipedia:
quote:
Cultural Marxism is a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory which claims Western Marxism as the basis of continuing academic and intellectual efforts to subvert Western culture. The theory claims that an elite of Marxist theorists and Frankfurt School intellectuals are subverting Western society with a culture war that undermines the Christian values of traditionalist conservatism and promotes the cultural liberal values of the 1960s counterculture and multiculturalism, progressive politics and political correctness, misrepresented as identity politics created by critical theory.
With roots in the Nazi propaganda term “Cultural Bolshevism”, the conspiracy theory originated in the United States during the 1990s.  While originally found only on the far right political fringe, the term began to enter mainstream discourse in the 2010s and is now found globally. The conspiracy theory of a Marxist culture war is promoted by right-wing politicians, fundamentalist religious leaders, political commentators in mainstream print and television media, and white supremacist terrorists. Scholarly analysis of the conspiracy theory has concluded that it has no basis in fact.
So that's yet another right-wing conspiracy theory that you buy into.
...and it will end up being the death (the last and final days) of this planet.
Read the last sentence of the Wikipedia quote again: "No basis in fact."
The critics at EvC (despite some of them claiming to be true Christians)...
No one professes more anti-Christian attitudes than the conservative Christians here. I think you all follow WWJDTDTO: What would Jesus do, then do the opposite.
...know nothing about the existence and reality of God...
You know nothing about Him either, and you certainly don't follow his teachings (from the NT, not the OT - as a follower of the God of the Old Testament you're doing pretty good).
...nor do they understand that when you pump 11 trillion dollars into the US dollar it will inflate and decrease in overall purchasing power...
This is a pretty severe misrepresentation. We all understand that too much deficit spending puts inflationary pressure on the economy, and no one's said anything to the contrary.
And why are you worried about deficits now and not under Trump? Here's a graph of our annual deficit since 2001. Notice that the deficit increased each year under Trump, and especially in 2020, Trump's last year. The projected deficit for 2021, Biden's first year, is slightly lower:
About upcoming deficits, are you somehow imagining that the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill and the $1.75 trillion social programs and climate change bill are all going to be spent in one year so that next year our deficit will increase by $2.95 trillion? You do think that, don't you, so let me disabuse you of that misconception. The $1.2 trillion for infrastructure will be spent over five years, averaging $240 billion per year. The $1.75 trillion for social programs and climate change will be spent over ten years, averaging $175 billion per year. That's a total increase of $415 billion next year. Feel better now?
---effectively killing the US middle class.
I reiterate that you are delusional.
I have finally concluded that they do not care.
Add your concern about the deficits wiping out the middle class to the long list of fictional things that you're delusional about, and which for that reason we don't care about. Express a concern about something true and real and we'll listen.
They claim to have a heart for the welfare of the entire world and would rather see the privileged class that our early days of expansionism and freedom produced diminish.
Yes, exactly right, America is wealthy because of our past plunder of the world's resources and economic and political exploitation of those poorer and weaker than us. That we grew wealthy from ill-gotten gains is not something to take pride in. Probably no group has suffered more directly from our avarice (and is owed more, not that we'll ever make fair payment) than the American Indian. Instead of recognizing the evil that we're heir to you just clutch your loot tightly to your bosom while repeating, "Mine, mine, mine."
Trump befriended that class(as well as the 1% like himself, unfortunately) and postponed its inevitable demise.
The class Trump befriended is the worst among us: the racists, the bigots, the white supremacists, the protectionists, the uneducated, the rural poor, the easily fooled.
Ultimately, money itself will be taken from the people and made a part of a globalist system.
Again, you are delusional. The world is not moving toward a "globalist system," which is a synonym for yet another conspiracy theory that you subscribe to, the New World Order that imagines a totalitarian world government.
We won't be able to take ourselves out of the banking system nearly as easily without tax consequences.
I can't imagine what you're referring to unless you mean the International Monetary Fund, which is not a banking system. We contribute $117 billion to its funding each year.
To the progressive liberals, it is as it should be.
If you're referring again to our lack of concern about the delusional conspiracy theories you keep pushing, you are correct.
They claim that Christians are mostly far-right and mostly selfish.
Liberals are not calling Christians "far-right and mostly selfish." You do that yourself with your own words. Just look a few paragraphs above where you call yourself a privileged class built through expansionism at the expense of those less fortunate and with less might.
(We are not--we are individualistic rather than collectivists...
Here's yet another of your delusions, that liberals are collectivists.
...and mandatory do-gooders under the hand of a "benevolent" government.)
You're opposed to government doing good? Do you really favor a government that does no good? No public transportation? No highways? No public education? No farm bureau? No FDA to mandate iodine in our salt and vitamin D in our milk? No public health to make sure children are vaccinated and to handle epidemics and pandemics? The list of the good that government does is endless. That's one of the important reasons government exists, to provide for the public good.
Of course, none of them believe in original sin nor in a spiritual war.
Oh my God, I think I've got whiplash! Didn't see that coming. Of what possible relevance is this to anything you said before?
They challenge me to provide evidence and they point to the fact that it is I who am the monster and unloving towards the poor disenfranchised masses.
That you're a monster has nothing to do with God (or to the extent that it does is only between you and him). It has to do with the sentiments you expressed yourself in Message 355: "so-named victims" who "would never know what to do with a stimulus check or a reparations tax break if it were handed to them." They must first be "reeducated. This assistance is "lavish." We shouldn't help the rest of the world because they might "use our own weapons against us," as if we sent them food and they fired it back as missiles.
I will admit that I am not in favor of mandatory altruism nor of government control and regulation of MY assets which I earn.
If taxes being mandatory makes something the government spends money on as mandatory, then everything the government spends money on is mandatory, not just altruism (a sentiment you're apparently opposed to government expressing). All the taxes you pay are under "government control and regulation," not just the portion that you call altruistic.
You seem completely oblivious to how bad it sounds to be opposed to altruism just because it comes from government, but anyway, that's why you're a monster.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Phat, posted 11-30-2021 12:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 12-01-2021 3:30 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18452
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 366 of 773 (889502)
12-01-2021 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Percy
12-01-2021 11:30 AM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
Disclaimer: Though I was on a great Lo-Carb Diet for close to all of November, I relapsed and had some bad carbs with high sugar the past 2 days before I wrote this stuff. (perhaps the sugar does make me irrational) but I am back on the horse as of today(December 1st) and hope to have good numbers by the end of the month when I see both Doctors.
Anyway, allow me to explain my irrational paranoia, apart from high sugar.
1)Jar claims that the US *should* have helped rebuild Viet Nam and other places. Does he not realize that by lifting up the trading partners there would be direct competition for the American worker? And the sad fact is, we cannot compete. Their work ethic and willingness to work harder for less would have beaten our own native populists and uneducated workers domestically. It is not mainly the altruism that I am opposed to. It is the lack of similar concern for our own first.
You're opposed to the government doing good? Do you really favor a government that does no good? No public transportation? No highways? No public education? No farm bureau? No FDA to mandate iodine in our salt and vitamin D in our milk? No public health to make sure children are vaccinated and to handle epidemics and pandemics? The list of the good that government does is endless. That's one of the important reasons government exists, to provide for the public good.
Of course I'm not opposed to the FDA, the CDP, and other agencies that regulate public health and safety. I'm opposed to mandatory control and implementation of taxes beyond domestic needs. Jar himself mentions that *we* should have helped Viet Nam...and no doubt Iraq and Afghanistan, though the governments in place there are still hostile to American foreign policy. China is taking over. Does anyone want the CCP running the planet? (The anti-Christian CCP, I might add)
Wiki writes:
Collectivism is a value that is characterized by an emphasis on cohesiveness among individuals and prioritization of the group over the self. Individuals or groups that subscribe to a collectivist worldview tend to find common values and goals as particularly salient[1] and demonstrate greater orientation toward in-group than toward out-group.[2] The term "in-group" is thought to be more diffusely defined for collectivist individuals to include societal units ranging from the nuclear family to a religious or racial/ethnic group.
One example of collectivism in action is selectively only giving stimulus checks to "each according to their need." This is a blatant example of in-group thinking and mandatory under a government of, by, and for the in-group.
The only part of collectivism that I favor is the collective bargaining of a labor union. As our wages go up in line with inflation, we will be accused of causing inflation by insisting on parity rather than biting the bullet and accepting less. Which is another reason I abhor anarchy. They steal theirs.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Percy, posted 12-01-2021 11:30 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by nwr, posted 12-01-2021 6:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 369 by Percy, posted 12-01-2021 9:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 376 by ringo, posted 12-02-2021 11:23 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 389 by Percy, posted 12-02-2021 7:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 367 of 773 (889503)
12-01-2021 4:09 PM


Phat writes:
1)Jar claims that the US *should* have helped rebuild Viet Nam and other places. Does he not realize that by lifting up the trading partners there would be direct competition for the American worker? And the sad fact is, we cannot compete. Their work ethic and willingness to work harder for less would have beaten our own native populists and uneducated workers domestically. It is not mainly the altruism that I am opposed to. It is the lack of similar concern for our own first.
No Phat, once again you continue to lie about what others say.
We should not have fucked up all those other nations in the first place.
We should have accepted the democratically determined will of the people of Iran, Iraq, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, China, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic, ... the list goes on and on; and allowed those nations to determine their own forms of Government instead of stepping in and trying to force OUR desired government on them. We should have given them aid instead of guns.
Remember Phat, if it were not for the work ethic of all of those other nations you would not even have a job. It is their produce and their products that you put on YOUR shelves.
Period!
If we have uneducated workers would not it make more sense to educate them than to send them off to get killed for no valid reason at all?
And finally, how exactly can a worker with a good work ethic and willingness to work harder than you that is in Vietnam or Irag or Iran or Cuba beat down a worker in the US?
Christ Phat; are you totally incapable of even the most simple thought processes?

My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-02-2021 2:06 AM jar has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6444
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(3)
Message 368 of 773 (889504)
12-01-2021 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
12-01-2021 3:30 PM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
The only part of collectivism that I favor is the collective bargaining of a labor union.
And yet you belong to the evangelical Christian collective and you regularly vote for the Republican collective.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 12-01-2021 3:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22694
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 369 of 773 (889505)
12-01-2021 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
12-01-2021 3:30 PM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
In Beautiful Mind John Nash says he trusted the ideas of his period of insanity because they came to him in the same way as those that had earlier made him one of the world's foremost mathematicians. You shouldn't be trusting the ideas that are coming to you right now.
I think you should take another more rational swing at practically everything you said.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 12-01-2021 3:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2496
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 370 of 773 (889506)
12-02-2021 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by jar
12-01-2021 4:09 PM


I dare to ask Jar for a substantive explanation about a complex situation.
He said something about supporting the "democratic" will of a list of nations.
(Just the use of the aspirational term "democratic" being applied to a country, that has beed meddled with, reeks of imperialism and imperialist propaganda, but that aside)
My question is, basically, "how in hell can you claim to know what the 'democratically determined will' is of the majority of the population is in the respective countries"?
(As somebody who has an ethnic-Iraqi roommate, who fought in the Iran-Iraq 1980-1988 war, I know less about the "will" of people, as I learn more. I was just arguing today that the "democratic" will-idea should assume most Middle Easterners would (should have) support the 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. I was saying that the average Middle Easterner was hurt badly by the very existence of Kuwait and there was a possibility that the actions of the Iraqi president would have been supported by a genuinely free vote. )
That aside, why did you end your list with Cold War overthrows (Iraq aside)?
What about the overthrow/killing bombing of Lybia, jar?
Does your list of our invasions end when Bush 43 left office?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by jar, posted 12-01-2021 4:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by jar, posted 12-02-2021 7:25 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 371 of 773 (889507)
12-02-2021 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by LamarkNewAge
12-02-2021 2:06 AM


Re: I dare to ask Jar for a substantive explanation about a complex situation.
You look at what the vote tally was just as you should do even in nations as backwards as the US.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-02-2021 2:06 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18452
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 372 of 773 (889508)
12-02-2021 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by nwr
11-30-2021 2:19 PM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
nwr writes:
Given that Marx was opposed to capitalism, and thought things should be for the people at large, one might guess that cultural Marxism is just saying that culture should come from the people. But culture has always come from the people. Even the suggestion of a marketplace of ideas, such as we often hear from conservatives, effectively puts culture in the hands of the people.
The question is "which people"? ALL of them? (Globalism writ LARGE)
nwr writes:
Since you are so concerned about cultural Marxism, maybe you can explain what it is. I have tried a google lookup. But, as best I can tell, there's no such thing.
I am NOT referring to the conspiracy theory. Note that a conspiracy by definition is:
Websters writes:
Essential Meaning of conspiracy
1 : a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal The CIA uncovered a conspiracy against the government.
2 : the act of secretly planning to do something that is harmful or illegal They were accused of conspiracy to commit murder.
Full Definition of conspiracy
1 : the act of conspiring together They were accused of conspiracy to commit murder.
2a : an agreement among conspirators uncovered a conspiracy against the government
b : a group of conspirators a conspiracy made up of disgruntled aristocrats
Now...if by aristocrats we mean the people who have benefitted to any degree from hundreds of years of American expansionism, one could hypothetically throw the populists in as a group of so-called aristocrats.
My parents were far from aristocratic, however. They simply were benefactors of the aberration which jar has spoken of...the ramped up industrial capacity of the United States for twenty years or so after WWII.
nwr writes:
And yet you belong to the evangelical Christian collective and you regularly vote for the Republican collective.
Not true. I voted for Biden over Trump in the last election, though I now regret it. The Democrats in power appear set to spend more money than Trump ever did. Critics will say that this money is primarily earmarked to help the US, but statements such as the ones jar has made disturb me.
jar writes:
We should have accepted the democratically determined will of the people of Iran, Iraq, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, China, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic, ... the list goes on and on; and allowed those nations to determine their own forms of Government instead of stepping in and trying to force OUR desired government on them. We should have given them aid instead of guns.
FULL STOP. Do you mean to suggest that our tax dollars should have gone overseas? Though I suppose that they already do indirectly through the BEAST that is the military-industrial complex! This world is SCREWED UP! It all seems like a no-win situation. Note the comments by a left-leaning Christian by the name of John Pavlovitz:
John Pavolvitz writes:
A reader from Australia texted me last night. He’d been watching the news and said he wanted to check on me.
We’re heartbroken to hear what’s going on there. he wrote. Is it really as bad as it looks?
Another sweet friend from England messaged me this morning, with similar concern for me and for our nation based on what she’s been reading and seeing in the media.
Over the past few months I’ve had many kind-hearted people from all over the world make similar inquiries about America, asking if it is as dire and alarming up close as it appears from a distance.
Yes, it is.
In fact, it’s far worse here on the ground, because all the ugliness you can see from thousands of miles away (outside of a few politician’s faces) is probably still rather abstract—a largely undefinable, faceless wave of malice and bigotry, something to be analyzed and studied later.
But here on the ground, this malignant sickness has a face, one that is far too familiar:
It’s the face of family members whose newly revealed racism is regularly leveling us around the dinner table.
It’s the face of former church friends, who have completely abandoned the Jesus they claim faith in and chosen the vilest of idols.
It’s the face of once pleasant neighbors who casually regurgitate extremist propaganda in sidewalk conversations.
It’s the face of childhood friends spewing anti-immigrant filth on their social media profiles.
It’s the face of store owners and hairstylists and restaurant workers, the interactions with whom, have become walks through minefields.
So yes, it’s the staggering cruelty of those holding the power here—but just as much it’s the people we know and live alongside who are so gladly empowering them.
Yes, it’s the complete bastardization of the rule of law and the systems of protections our forebears put in place to avoid putting our nation in such peril—but it’s our coworkers and uncles and classmates who don’t seem to give a damn about that.
Yes, it’s one political party’s sociopathic lack of empathy and their unrepentant viciousness—but it’s the people we’ve shared Thanksgiving dinner with and served on mission trips alongside, who share their venom and boost their signal.
Yes, it’s Republican politicians’ incessant attacks on LGBTQ people and immigrants and Muslims and the sick and the vulnerable—but it’s the once kind-hearted people we love, who have been so poisoned by partisan talking points and perverted Christian theology that they celebrate all of it.
That’s why this is all so bad.
We’re certainly losing the big things here: the integrity of our elections, the stability of our Republic, the faith in our systems, the illusion that our Republican leaders will put anything over power and party.
But we’re losing much more than that.
We’re losing the soft places we called home: our families and our churches and our circle of friends.
We are swiftly and almost hourly seeing the relational fractures that may have always been there beneath the surface, but are now visible and cavernous.
We’re trying to decide whether to fight for relationships we’ve spent our lives nurturing, or whether we need to sever those connections in the name of self-preservation.
These things will never make the news or make a global impact—but they are rocking our personal worlds to the bedrock.
So we’re marching and protesting and working and resisting in the face of this monumental and historically malevolent national political cancer—and while we’re doing that, we’re also trying to preserve our families and our friendships and our workplaces, which are also hanging by a thread.
This is a Constitutional crisis and it’s a family emergency.
We’re wondering what happened to our nation—and to people we once loved and respected; to our parents, grandparents, siblings, neighbors, and best friends.
Yes, our Democracy is in peril, but our most treasured relationships with people are in tatters too.
We are trying to salvage both and it’s exhausting.
So yes, friends around the world, thank you for caring about us in America.
It is as bad as it looks from where you’re standing.
But it’s far worse, too.
The Bible spoke of such times.
Luke 14:25-27NIV writes:
Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes, even his own life-he cannot be my disciple. 27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Thus it is a topsy turvy world! The Democrats who outwardly deny Jesus as a reality and whom I referred to as "bleeding hearts" are in fact closer to what Jesus expects than are the ones who claim to know and follow basic Biblical precepts.
Phat, referring to liberals writes:
Of course, none of them believe in original sin nor in a spiritual war.
Percy writes:
Oh my God, I think I've got whiplash! Didn't see that coming. Of what possible relevance is this to anything you said before?
Because by and large, many liberals have dismissed the necessity (nevermind possibility) of surrendering to God as we understand Him and following His mandates and substituted allegiance to a progressive government and allowing "it" to set the mandates. Conservatives with a strong faith and a moral conscience are few and far between, but they get it. Without Jesus Christ, humans will never successfully create a workable consensus and a brave new world. The antitheists violently disagree. The makings of a spiritual war are all too evident.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by nwr, posted 11-30-2021 2:19 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 12-02-2021 10:51 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 375 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2021 11:14 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 377 by ringo, posted 12-02-2021 11:27 AM Phat has replied
 Message 382 by nwr, posted 12-02-2021 12:37 PM Phat has replied
 Message 400 by Percy, posted 12-03-2021 10:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 373 of 773 (889510)
12-02-2021 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Phat
12-02-2021 10:30 AM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
Phat writes:
jar writes:
We should have accepted the democratically determined will of the people of Iran, Iraq, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, China, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic, ... the list goes on and on; and allowed those nations to determine their own forms of Government instead of stepping in and trying to force OUR desired government on them. We should have given them aid instead of guns.
FULL STOP. Do you mean to suggest that our tax dollars should have gone overseas? Though I suppose that they already do indirectly through the BEAST that is the military-industrial complex! This world is SCREWED UP! It all seems like a no-win situation.
Of course, we should invest or tax dollars overseas rather than spend those very same (and in fact many more tax dollars) fighting utterly stupid wars.
Investing in things that benefit people is always a better choice than investing in things that will hurt everyone.
Think Phat, try to think.
Learn history.
Stop listening to the liars and con artists that appear to be your sources. Stop placing SOURCE over content. Throw your God and god and Jesus away, especially your Jesus which is nothing but a shibboleth. You refuse to pay any attention to what the Bible claims Jesus said and commanded anyway. You don't have a clue about Jesus and simply use JESUS as a way to avoid doing what YOU need to do.
The world isn't screwed up; it is just that a population that has been taught to NOT think keeps making the same dumb mistakes over and over and over again because the place SOURCE over content, BELIEF over evidence and IGNORANCE over knowledge.
What is screwed up is YOU and the millions like you who have decided to remain willfully ignorant.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 12-02-2021 10:30 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 525 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 374 of 773 (889511)
12-02-2021 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Phat
11-30-2021 12:47 PM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
Phat writes:
I will admit that I am not in favor of mandatory altruism...
Nobody is.
I can't force you to be a decent person.
Phat writes:
... nor of government control and regulation of MY assets which I earn.
All governments collect taxes. Roads, schools, etc....

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Phat, posted 11-30-2021 12:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Phat, posted 12-02-2021 11:41 AM ringo has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17853
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 375 of 773 (889512)
12-02-2021 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Phat
12-02-2021 10:30 AM


Re: Mandatory Empathy and Government Control
Phat, you’ve let your blood sugar get out of control again, haven’t you?
At this rate you’ll be dead in a few years - if you manage that long.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Phat, posted 12-02-2021 10:30 AM Phat has not replied

  
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