Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals?

You sound like a monster.--Percy

Being a businessman, Trump did nothing except delay the inevitable. I never agreed with his personality or his diplomacy, but I did realize the divide in American politics that I never knew was so pervasive. I had always liked Obama...not due to his politics or business acumen, but due to his amicable nature and expert use of words and empathy--a trait which Trump lacked. I have always labeled myself as a political moderate though many here shove me firmly into the conservative camp. One thing I do know for sure despite their insistance that I do not. The world is sliding towards cultural marxism and it will end up being the death (the last and final days) of this planet. The critics at EvC (despites some of them claiming to be true Christians) know nothing about the existence and reality of God nor do they understand that when you pump 11 trillion dollars into the US dollar it will inflate and decrease in overall purchasing power---effectively killing the US middle class. I have finally concluded that they do not care. They claim to have a heart for the welfare of the entire world and would rather see the privileged class that our early days of expansionism and freedom produced diminish. Trump befriended that class(as well as the 1% like himself, unfortunately) and postponed its inevitable demise. Ultimately, money itself will be taken from the people and made a part of a globalist system. We won't be able to take ourselves out of the banking system nearly as easily without tax consequences.To the progressive liberals, it is as it should be. They claim that Christians are mostly far-right and mostly selfish.(We are not--we are individualistic rather than collectivists and mandatory do-gooders under the hand of a "benevolent" government.) Of course, none of them believe in original sin nor in a spiritual war. They challenge me to provide evidence and they point to the fact that it is I who am the monster and unloving towards the poor disenfranchised masses. I will admit that I am not in favor of mandatory altruism nor of government control and regulation of MY assets which I earn. In that way, I have something in common with you, marc9000. But now it is my turn. Let me ask you a question. Where do YOU stand spiritually? Beyond the context of right-wing politics, are you a believer in Jesus Christ and His eventual return? Do you see the sin in yourself as I see in myself? Do you see that the progressives substitute mandatory empathy and aid to the poor for a decision which should be individually and freely made?Edited by Phat, : sub title

Since you are so concerned about cultural Marxism, maybe you can explain what it is. I have tried a google lookup. But, as best I can tell, there's no such thing.Given that Marx was opposed to capitalism, and thought things should be for the people at large, one might guess that cultural Marxism is just saying that culture should come from the people. But culture has always come from the people. Even the suggestion of a marketplace of ideas, such as we often hear from conservatives, effectively puts culture in the hands of the people.So what is this cultural Marxism that troubles you? Or is it just a meaningless buzzword?

I'm sorry my posts don't more clearly convey my Christianity. The reason they don't is because at a forum like this, the atheist leftists often try to portray any Christian as someone who favors the imposition of all, or most, or some Levitical law into mandatory government rules. Practically no Christian conservatives do of course, they favor the traditional liberty and limited government concept that the founders (many of them Judeo-Christians) had. And that includes some basic Judeo Christian principles in how people should live and associate with one another. And it doesn't include a worship of the planet, the climate, or the government.I think a mistake that may atheists and Christians alike make, is to not carefully consider the differences in Biblical teachings in how individuals should act, versus how societies should act as a whole. As an example, a soldier of a society who kills a soldier of another society in battle, is different from an individual killing someone in a rage. Also, from 2nd Thessalonians "if any would not work, neither should he eat". That can interpreted differently in individual situations, the difference between laziness and genuine hard times not of a person's makings. But the difference between 1) 'no work / no eat' and 2)Christ's compassion for one's neighbor - I don't think 2 involves a 3rd party (government) redistributing in the name of compassion, while skimming a chunk off the top to enrich themselves.I'm 67, I'm now the longest-time member of a Missouri-Synod Lutheran Church. Seen several pastors come and go, baptized there as a baby, confirmed as a teenager. I'm often the go-to guy when someone has a question about some part of the church's history. Though there were a few multi year periods that I didn't attend, I've regularly attended there much more than half my life anyway. I'm active there now, building and grounds, offering counter, usher etc. Do I see sin in myself? Oh yes, in many ways. I'm working on it, not to save myself, no one can do that, I'm just trying to show faith and thanks for the salvation I have.But the reason for my above question is that I'm seeing regret of differing degrees, in polls and news reports. Some are unhappy with Biden, but are still glad to be rid of Trump, while some Biden voters wish they'd voted for Trump. Most all of them were taking for granted what Trump did and didn't do, they were taking for granted stable oil prices, stable inflation, a presidential assertiveness that our enemies didn't like, many other things, versus what we have now. The 22 and 24 elections will be interesting. I think Trump will be there in 24, if his health holds up. As things stand now, would you vote for him?

Delay what inevitable? Inflation? Supply chain delays? An unending pandemic? Destruction of American institutions, particularly trust in the integrity of our elections? Trump amplified the divide begun by the Tea Party, and he put Republicans firmly on a path of non-cooperative obstructionism with Democrats. The Republican test of true Republicanism has become whether you put doing ill toward the Democrats ahead of what is good for the country. Not counting those that are delusional, you have no moderate or liberal positions. According to Wikipedia:

quote:

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Cultural Marxism is a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory which claims Western Marxism as the basis of continuing academic and intellectual efforts to subvert Western culture. The theory claims that an elite of Marxist theorists and Frankfurt School intellectuals are subverting Western society with a culture war that undermines the Christian values of traditionalist conservatism and promotes the cultural liberal values of the 1960s counterculture and multiculturalism, progressive politics and political correctness, misrepresented as identity politics created by critical theory.

​

With roots in the Nazi propaganda term “Cultural Bolshevism”, the conspiracy theory originated in the United States during the 1990s.  While originally found only on the far right political fringe, the term began to enter mainstream discourse in the 2010s and is now found globally. The conspiracy theory of a Marxist culture war is promoted by right-wing politicians, fundamentalist religious leaders, political commentators in mainstream print and television media, and white supremacist terrorists. Scholarly analysis of the conspiracy theory has concluded that it has no basis in fact.

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So that's yet another right-wing conspiracy theory that you buy into. Read the last sentence of the Wikipedia quote again: "No basis in fact." No one professes more anti-Christian attitudes than the conservative Christians here. I think you all follow WWJDTDTO: What would Jesus do, then do the opposite. You know nothing about Him either, and you certainly don't follow his teachings (from the NT, not the OT - as a follower of the God of the Old Testament you're doing pretty good). This is a pretty severe misrepresentation. We all understand that too much deficit spending puts inflationary pressure on the economy, and no one's said anything to the contrary.And why are you worried about deficits now and not under Trump? Here's a graph of our annual deficit since 2001. Notice that the deficit increased each year under Trump, and especially in 2020, Trump's last year. The projected deficit for 2021, Biden's first year, is slightly lower: About upcoming deficits, are you somehow imagining that the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill and the $1.75 trillion social programs and climate change bill are all going to be spent in one year so that next year our deficit will increase by $2.95 trillion? You do think that, don't you, so let me disabuse you of that misconception. The $1.2 trillion for infrastructure will be spent over five years, averaging $240 billion per year. The $1.75 trillion for social programs and climate change will be spent over ten years, averaging $175 billion per year. That's a total increase of $415 billion next year. Feel better now? I reiterate that you are delusional. Add your concern about the deficits wiping out the middle class to the long list of fictional things that you're delusional about, and which for that reason we don't care about. Express a concern about something true and real and we'll listen. Yes, exactly right, America is wealthy because of our past plunder of the world's resources and economic and political exploitation of those poorer and weaker than us. That we grew wealthy from ill-gotten gains is not something to take pride in. Probably no group has suffered more directly from our avarice (and is owed more, not that we'll ever make fair payment) than the American Indian. Instead of recognizing the evil that we're heir to you just clutch your loot tightly to your bosom while repeating, "Mine, mine, mine." The class Trump befriended is the worst among us: the racists, the bigots, the white supremacists, the protectionists, the uneducated, the rural poor, the easily fooled. Again, you are delusional. The world is not moving toward a "globalist system," which is a synonym for yet another conspiracy theory that you subscribe to, the New World Order that imagines a totalitarian world government. I can't imagine what you're referring to unless you mean the International Monetary Fund, which is not a banking system. We contribute $117 billion to its funding each year. If you're referring again to our lack of concern about the delusional conspiracy theories you keep pushing, you are correct. Liberals are not calling Christians "far-right and mostly selfish." You do that yourself with your own words. Just look a few paragraphs above where you call yourself a privileged class built through expansionism at the expense of those less fortunate and with less might. Here's yet another of your delusions, that liberals are collectivists. You're opposed to government doing good? Do you really favor a government that does no good? No public transportation? No highways? No public education? No farm bureau? No FDA to mandate iodine in our salt and vitamin D in our milk? No public health to make sure children are vaccinated and to handle epidemics and pandemics? The list of the good that government does is endless. That's one of the important reasons government exists, to provide for the public good. Oh my God, I think I've got whiplash! Didn't see that coming. Of what possible relevance is this to anything you said before? That you're a monster has nothing to do with God (or to the extent that it does is only between you and him). It has to do with the sentiments you expressed yourself in Message 355: "so-named victims" who "would never know what to do with a stimulus check or a reparations tax break if it were handed to them." They must first be "reeducated. This assistance is "lavish." We shouldn't help the rest of the world because they might "use our own weapons against us," as if we sent them food and they fired it back as missiles. If taxes being mandatory makes something the government spends money on as mandatory, then everything the government spends money on is mandatory, not just altruism (a sentiment you're apparently opposed to government expressing). All the taxes you pay are under "government control and regulation," not just the portion that you call altruistic.You seem completely oblivious to how bad it sounds to be opposed to altruism just because it comes from government, but anyway, that's why you're a monster.--Percy

Disclaimer: Though I was on a great Lo-Carb Diet for close to all of November, I relapsed and had some bad carbs with high sugar the past 2 days before I wrote this stuff. (perhaps the sugar does make me irrational) but I am back on the horse as of today(December 1st) and hope to have good numbers by the end of the month when I see both Doctors.Anyway, allow me to explain my irrational paranoia, apart from high sugar.1)Jar claims that the US *should* have helped rebuild Viet Nam and other places. Does he not realize that by lifting up the trading partners there would be direct competition for the American worker? And the sad fact is, we cannot compete. Their work ethic and willingness to work harder for less would have beaten our own native populists and uneducated workers domestically. It is not mainly the altruism that I am opposed to. It is the lack of similar concern for our own first. Of course I'm not opposed to the FDA, the CDP, and other agencies that regulate public health and safety. I'm opposed to mandatory control and implementation of taxes beyond domestic needs. Jar himself mentions that *we* should have helped Viet Nam...and no doubt Iraq and Afghanistan, though the governments in place there are still hostile to American foreign policy. China is taking over. Does anyone want the CCP running the planet? (The anti-Christian CCP, I might add) One example of collectivism in action is selectively only giving stimulus checks to "each according to their need." This is a blatant example of in-group thinking and mandatory under a government of, by, and for the in-group.The only part of collectivism that I favor is the collective bargaining of a labor union. As our wages go up in line with inflation, we will be accused of causing inflation by insisting on parity rather than biting the bullet and accepting less. Which is another reason I abhor anarchy. They steal theirs.

No Phat, once again you continue to lie about what others say.We should not have fucked up all those other nations in the first place.We should have accepted the democratically determined will of the people of Iran, Iraq, Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, China, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic, ... the list goes on and on; and allowed those nations to determine their own forms of Government instead of stepping in and trying to force OUR desired government on them. We should have given them aid instead of guns.Remember Phat, if it were not for the work ethic of all of those other nations you would not even have a job. It is their produce and their products that you put on YOUR shelves.Period!If we have uneducated workers would not it make more sense to educate them than to send them off to get killed for no valid reason at all?And finally, how exactly can a worker with a good work ethic and willingness to work harder than you that is in Vietnam or Irag or Iran or Cuba beat down a worker in the US?Christ Phat; are you totally incapable of even the most simple thought processes?

And yet you belong to the evangelical Christian collective and you regularly vote for the Republican collective.

In Beautiful Mind John Nash says he trusted the ideas of his period of insanity because they came to him in the same way as those that had earlier made him one of the world's foremost mathematicians. You shouldn't be trusting the ideas that are coming to you right now.I think you should take another more rational swing at practically everything you said.--Percy

He said something about supporting the "democratic" will of a list of nations.(Just the use of the aspirational term "democratic" being applied to a country, that has beed meddled with, reeks of imperialism and imperialist propaganda, but that aside)My question is, basically, "how in hell can you claim to know what the 'democratically determined will' is of the majority of the population is in the respective countries"?(As somebody who has an ethnic-Iraqi roommate, who fought in the Iran-Iraq 1980-1988 war, I know less about the "will" of people, as I learn more. I was just arguing today that the "democratic" will-idea should assume most Middle Easterners would (should have) support the 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. I was saying that the average Middle Easterner was hurt badly by the very existence of Kuwait and there was a possibility that the actions of the Iraqi president would have been supported by a genuinely free vote. )That aside, why did you end your list with Cold War overthrows (Iraq aside)?What about the overthrow/killing bombing of Lybia, jar?Does your list of our invasions end when Bush 43 left office?

You look at what the vote tally was just as you should do even in nations as backwards as the US.

The question is "which people"? ALL of them? (Globalism writ LARGE) I am NOT referring to the conspiracy theory. Note that a conspiracy by definition is: Now...if by aristocrats we mean the people who have benefitted to any degree from hundreds of years of American expansionism, one could hypothetically throw the populists in as a group of so-called aristocrats.
My parents were far from aristocratic, however. They simply were benefactors of the aberration which jar has spoken of...the ramped up industrial capacity of the United States for twenty years or so after WWII. Not true. I voted for Biden over Trump in the last election, though I now regret it. The Democrats in power appear set to spend more money than Trump ever did. Critics will say that this money is primarily earmarked to help the US, but statements such as the ones jar has made disturb me. FULL STOP. Do you mean to suggest that our tax dollars should have gone overseas? Though I suppose that they already do indirectly through the BEAST that is the military-industrial complex! This world is SCREWED UP! It all seems like a no-win situation. Note the comments by a left-leaning Christian by the name of John Pavlovitz: The Bible spoke of such times. Thus it is a topsy turvy world! The Democrats who outwardly deny Jesus as a reality and whom I referred to as "bleeding hearts" are in fact closer to what Jesus expects than are the ones who claim to know and follow basic Biblical precepts. Because by and large, many liberals have dismissed the necessity (nevermind possibility) of surrendering to God as we understand Him and following His mandates and substituted allegiance to a progressive government and allowing "it" to set the mandates. Conservatives with a strong faith and a moral conscience are few and far between, but they get it. Without Jesus Christ, humans will never successfully create a workable consensus and a brave new world. The antitheists violently disagree. The makings of a spiritual war are all too evident.Edited by Phat, : spelling

Of course, we should invest or tax dollars overseas rather than spend those very same (and in fact many more tax dollars) fighting utterly stupid wars.Investing in things that benefit people is always a better choice than investing in things that will hurt everyone.Think Phat, try to think.Learn history.Stop listening to the liars and con artists that appear to be your sources. Stop placing SOURCE over content. Throw your God and god and Jesus away, especially your Jesus which is nothing but a shibboleth. You refuse to pay any attention to what the Bible claims Jesus said and commanded anyway. You don't have a clue about Jesus and simply use JESUS as a way to avoid doing what YOU need to do.The world isn't screwed up; it is just that a population that has been taught to NOT think keeps making the same dumb mistakes over and over and over again because the place SOURCE over content, BELIEF over evidence and IGNORANCE over knowledge.What is screwed up is YOU and the millions like you who have decided to remain willfully ignorant.

Nobody is.I can't force you to be a decent person. All governments collect taxes. Roads, schools, etc....

Phat, you’ve let your blood sugar get out of control again, haven’t you?At this rate you’ll be dead in a few years - if you manage that long.