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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 16 of 137 (889656)
12-10-2021 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by nwr
12-10-2021 4:28 PM


The issue is not just that the review/blurb was designed to appeal to the gullible but that it works.

What would you say the likelihood of Phat reading the book and arriving at the position that he can accept that the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of the human mind?

Do you think that anyone who would quote that review/blurb as a recommendation for the book would be able to accept the fact that the Bible™ is 100% a human creation and so is each and every God found in the Bible, as well as the character Jesus found in the Bible?

That does not mean there is no value in the content of the stories. The SOURCE though is simply unknown humans over thousands of years.


My Website: My Website

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 Message 15 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 4:28 PM nwr has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5977
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 17 of 137 (889657)
12-10-2021 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
12-10-2021 6:28 PM


What would you say the likelihood of Phat reading the book and arriving at the position that he can accept that the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of the human mind?

I'm pretty sure that won't happen. But perhaps reading the book can open Phat's mind just a little.

The trouble with most fundamentalists, is that they did not get their ideas from reading their Bibles. They got them from their churches and their religious community. Yet they are convinced that it comes from the Bible. It is hard to persuade people who have never learned to think for themselves.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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dwise1
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Posts: 5076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 18 of 137 (889658)
12-10-2021 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
12-10-2021 11:07 AM


Re: Surprise Surprise
I wouldn’t go quite as far as Enns says here but he’s on the right track.

Enns writes:

Some Evangelicals bypass this challenge by seeking to undermine the historical claims of evolution. That is another matter entirely, and to which I say, good luck to you—as long as that challenge is done in an informed and principled manner: informed, meaning one has true professional training in the sciences being discussed and subjected to professional review; principled, meaning one is genuinely seeking after truth rather than pre-committed to defending truth as they need it to be?

That strongly parallels my own position which I've stated and held for decades; the summary statement of my position from my page, DWISE1'S CREATION / EVOLUTION POSITION STATEMENT:

quote:
If you honestly and truly want to fight evolution, then at least do it right! Learn everything you can about evolution and then attack it, not some stupid strawman caricature of it. And do so honestly and truthfully!

By refusing to fight evolution honestly and truthfully, but rather using "creation science" instead, you are constantly shooting yourself in the foot, dooming your cause to failure and your followers to losing their faith.


In all this time, I know of not one single creationist who has ever bothered to read it as they have instead attacked me viciously for things that I have done nor written.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 19 of 137 (889672)
12-11-2021 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
12-10-2021 6:28 PM


Trust The Source rather than Ditching Him
jar writes:

What would you say the likelihood of Phat reading the book and arriving at the position that he can accept that the Jesus of the New Testament is a creation of the human mind?

So far no dice, Charlie. I have listened to the book on Audible at least once. It is narrated by the author, I believe. Granted my Audible listens are not scholarly sessions but bedtime sessions which I use to calm my mind from a hard day's work and get some sleep. For this reason, I listen over and over again to the book....sleeping through some of it yet rewinding and listening again. My point? What this author says is more acceptable to me largely because he comes across as trusting God rather than simply presenting God as a "character" in a book. We can blame Martin Luther for starting a reformation that ended up producing critical thinkers that reject the tradition of God and Jesus as actual characters known and trusted by many authors throughout many ages in History.
How so? One might ask.

Until I get the actual paperback copies of two books that I am ordering from the author, I cannot quote directly how he explains and believes, but be patient, grasshopper. (Of course, I don't expect to move you off of your position since you have already concluded that there are "many god characters" within the Bible and seem incapable or unwilling to conclude that the book is about trusting and knowing God so much as it is about trusting and knowing yourself in preparation for what *you* are expected to do in this life. An anthology of anthologies as it were. ) Off-topic and for the record, it is why I consider critics such as Richard Carrier inspired by the devil. The author explains his take in the second book which I am now listening to. (The Sin Of Certainty)

Percy writes:

I'm a little concerned that the blurb might not be accurate because it describes him as evangelical but describes his views as anything but.

Without reading the book(s) you will have to dig a little deeper.

In my link, ‘The Sin of Certainty:’ Peter Enns’ journey from belief to trust the commentator had this to say in his review:

Alan Bean writes:

...Professor Enns is the product of a very conservative corner of American evangelicalism and therefore he managed to avoid any serious encounter with agnosticism, atheism, non-Christian religions, or the physical sciences until he did doctoral work at Harvard in the early 1990s. He was surprised to learn that most of the non-Christians he encountered were genuinely nice people. He also discovered that his Jewish professors in biblical Hebrew didn’t read the ancient texts like the Adam and Eve narratives in Genesis the way Enns had learned to read them.
Returning to Westminster Theological Seminary (his alma mater) as a professor, Enns attempted, gingerly at first, to loosen things up a bit. Everything was fine at first, but when the professor drafted a peace treaty between Charles Darwin and Christian orthodoxy things got ugly fast. His fellow professors were supportive, but the administration tightened the screws until Enns had no choice to resign. His experience is depressingly common in the tortured world of evangelical academics.

I think that Professor Enns started out as a product of conservative evangelicalism and then was open-minded enough during the course of his studies to listen to people, unlike the conservative evangelicals. Once fired from Westminster Theological Seminary, he had a dark night of the soul crises. He and his wife both felt rejected by the conservative community from which they had been ostracized.

The commentator continues:

Enns concludes the exegetical portion of his book with extensive treatments of the preacher of Ecclesiastes and the trials of Job. (It should be noticed that Enns doesn’t use technical terms like “exegetical,” “imprecatory,” “hermeneutical” or “eschatological.” This is a book for ordinary folks.)

Ecclesiastes boils down to this: “Trust God even when you don’t know what you believe, even when all before you is absurd.”

Job takes things to the next level. “My life is leaking out of me,” he tells God. “Why aren’t you true to your own promises? If we have to play by your rules, O Lord, why don’t you?”

Significantly, God never answers Job’s questions. That’s because the “Bible isn’t a Christian owner’s manual. God remains shrouded in mystery, inaccessible, beyond our mental reach.” You can trust this kind of God, but you will never understand him.

Believing that God is Immortal, Invisible and Only Wise is OK, Enns admits, but it is so easy that even a demon can do it. Trust is about being “all in.”

Being that many if not most of you here are liberal-leaning, you more easily ditched "God" in favor of critical thinking and evidence. Enns seems to have doubled down on trusting the God of scripture rather than attempting to redefine and frame his understanding through his own human wisdom. Of course to be fair, we *all* use our human wisdom whether we are believers or not.
As he moved through his dark night of the soul, Enns gradually let go of his inherited preoccupation with right thinking. “These experiences have drawn me out of my safe haven of certainty and onto a path of trusting God — not trusting God that my thinking is correct or soon would be, but trusting God regardless of how certain I might feel.”
This is why I disagree with scholars such as Carrier. He trusts his own intellect and tosses God away. jar must have convinced him!

A believer does not simply critically evaluate the Bible and make their own conclusions.

An unbeliever might lie about what they believe and/or mislead others into throwing God away and drawing their own conclusions from secular logic and reason.

Edited by Phat, : spellcheck


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 12-10-2021 6:28 PM jar has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 137 (889673)
12-11-2021 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by nwr
12-10-2021 7:21 PM


Believe or Not
nwr writes:

It is hard to persuade people who have never learned to think for themselves.

True, but keep in mind that believers don't simply read every book on every religion as well as psychology. Believers seek God, not becoming free from Him.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 7:21 PM nwr has seen this message

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 137 (889674)
12-11-2021 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by dwise1
12-10-2021 7:59 PM


Re: Surprise Surprise
dwise1 writes:

In all this time, I know of not one single creationist who has ever bothered to read it as they have instead attacked me viciously for things that I have done nor written.

Not sure I fully understand. For the record, I consider myself a Cosmological Creationist only in that I believe that God created it all. As to the particulars, I don't really care. I do believe that God wants me to seek Him and know Him and trust Him. I like Enns because he never left God. He only left certainty. I can fully relate.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 137 (889675)
12-11-2021 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by nwr
12-10-2021 4:28 PM


Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
nwr writes:

I did not see anything that persuaded me to buy the book...

That's because you would be more inclined to believe that "In the Beginning, Math...

Enns might argue that God will never be understood...and that now he can live with that.

It's all about trust. Not certainty.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 12-10-2021 4:28 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 9:52 AM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 23 of 137 (889676)
12-11-2021 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
12-10-2021 3:32 PM


Sola Scriptura vs Prima scriptura
I'm not sure if John Wesley believed this, but apparently, Methodists and Anglicans do. (collectively at least)

Wiki writes:

Prima scriptura is the Christian doctrine that canonized scripture is "first" or "above all" other sources of divine revelation. Implicitly, this view suggests that, besides canonical scripture, there can be other guides for what a believer should believe and how they should live, such as the Holy Spirit, created order, traditions, charismatic gifts, mystical insight, angelic visitations, conscience, common sense, the views of experts, the spirit of the times or something else. Prima scriptura suggests that ways of knowing or understanding God and his will that do not originate from canonized scripture are perhaps helpful in interpreting that scripture, but testable by the canon and correctable by it, if they seem to contradict the scriptures. Prima sciptura is upheld by the Anglican and Methodist traditions of Christianity, which suggest that Scripture is the primary source for Christian doctrine, but that "tradition, experience, and reason" can nurture the Christian religion as long as they are in harmony with the Bible.

Unbelievers such as Carrier throw not only God but the Bible and scripture fully away. By what map do they seek truth?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-10-2021 3:32 PM Percy has seen this message

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5977
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 24 of 137 (889677)
12-11-2021 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
12-11-2021 9:40 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
That's because you would be more inclined to believe that "In the Beginning, Math...

No, math is a purely human invention.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 9:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:07 AM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 137 (889678)
12-11-2021 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by nwr
12-11-2021 9:52 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
well jar seems to think that God is a purely human invention. Or at least the Bible is.

Do you?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 9:52 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:18 AM Phat has replied
 Message 44 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 11:44 AM Phat has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 26 of 137 (889680)
12-11-2021 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:07 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

well jar seems to think that God is a purely human invention. Or at least the Bible is.

Stop misrepresenting what I have posted Phat.

All of the evidence shows that the Bible, all of the many mutually exclusive Bibles are simply a human creation.

It has nothing to do with belief Phat; it is what the evidence shows.

And again, all of the evidence shows that every god and God that is included in the stories is also the product of human creation.

It has nothing to do with belief Phat; it is what the evidence shows.

Is the description and characteristics of the god in Genesis 1 the same as the description and characteristics of the God in Genesis 2&3?

How many different canons each listing a different selection of tales that will comprise the Bible exist?

It has nothing to do with belief Phat; it is what the evidence shows.

AbE:

Phat you are illustrating exactly the behavior I specified as the issue; you place BELIEF over evidence, SOURCE over content and FANTASY over reality.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:07 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:27 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 27 of 137 (889681)
12-11-2021 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
12-11-2021 10:18 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
So you believe in inconclusive evidence then? Or do you believe that the evidence you cite is conclusive....in which case you would not be a believer...except in evidence. Things are not always as they seem.

You either trust God or you don't.

And by the way, how can evidence be presented that disproves a Deity which cannot be objectively quantified?

Wiki writes:

Prima sciptura is upheld by the Anglican and Methodist traditions of Christianity, which suggest that Scripture is the primary source for Christian doctrine, but that "tradition, experience, and reason" can nurture the Christian religion as long as they are in harmony with the Bible.

You seem to think that it is more important to be in harmony with "evidence" rather than either the Bible or its "characters". How can you call yourself a believer when you trivialize the source? You think that some Episcopalian ritual branded you a believer for life?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:31 AM Phat has replied
 Message 60 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2021 2:29 PM Phat has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 28 of 137 (889682)
12-11-2021 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:27 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

So you believe in inconclusive evidence then? Or do you believe that the evidence you cite is conclusive....in which case you would not be a believer...except in evidence. Things are not always as they seem.
You either trust God or you don't.

And by the way, how can evidence be presented that disproves a Deity which cannot be objectively quantified?

You really are dense.

I believe that GOD exists.

That is a belief.

That the Bible and all (including every religion and every religious text) are human creations is a conclusion based on all of the evidence.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:35 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 137 (889683)
12-11-2021 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
12-11-2021 10:31 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
jar writes:

I believe that GOD exists.

That is a belief.

Well bully for you. All of the evidence shows that your belief begins and ends with your human mind. And yet I reject that evidence as valid.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:41 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 30 of 137 (889684)
12-11-2021 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:35 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

Well bully for you. All of the evidence shows that your belief begins and ends with your human mind. And yet I reject that evidence as valid.

Sheesh Phat.

Beliefs have no evidence in support; they are all simply the creation of a mind.

That is the definition of a believe.

There is NO evidence that supports my beliefs and can never be.

Phat;
we have been down this path a brazillion times and you still continue to misrepresent what others say.

You cannot reject evidence that simply does not exist; even making such a claim just makes you look silly.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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