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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
Phat
Member
Posts: 15949
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 137 (889685)
12-11-2021 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
12-11-2021 10:41 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
There is NO evidence that supports my beliefs and can never be.
God Himself is the evidence which you reject by definition. You limit Him to evidence.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 12-13-2021 7:54 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 32 of 137 (889686)
12-11-2021 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:43 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

God Himself is the evidence which you reject by definition. You limit Him to evidence.

Too absolutely silly Phat.

Do you ever think before you right such stupid shit?

If God is the evidence as you claim then place the evidence on the table to be examined?

YOU claim God is the evidence.

Buddha?

Thor?

Coyote?

Raven?

They are all Gods Phat.

And just as with the God from Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and the Jesus of the New Testament the only evidence to support them are the stories written by humans.

You claim the God is evidence.

Well then produce that evidence.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:23 AM jar has replied
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:31 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 33 of 137 (889687)
12-11-2021 11:03 AM


I went to my first humanist funeral yesterday. It was pleasant enough, just a bit naff. But at least god wasn't splashed about all over the place like it was ok for my mate to die because, well, godidit.

In god's place as the panacea for death we had love, family, friendship and memories etc.

As a service of remembrance it worked ok, but personally the last thing I want is all that miserable malarky pretending that the deceased was perfect.

I'm straight off to the crem - on my own - and then delivered in a bottle to the local pub where I'll be buying everyone drinks. My kids are going to put me in a firework and blow me up over the sea at midnight whilst playing Pink Floyd.

All this angst Phat. All this searching for "truth" in other people's daft writings and beliefs. It's not doing you any good. It seems to me that you're driving yourself mad with this hopeless quest of yours.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-11-2021 11:20 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 34 of 137 (889690)
12-11-2021 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tangle
12-11-2021 11:03 AM


My kids are going to put me in a firework and blow me up over the sea at midnight whilst playing Pink Floyd.

Well, what else would they play? Pink Floyd is the obvious choice.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2021 11:03 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:25 AM Tanypteryx has taken no action
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2021 11:52 AM Tanypteryx has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15949
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 35 of 137 (889691)
12-11-2021 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-11-2021 10:49 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
The only possible bit of objective evidence which I could produce is myself.(changed and humbled)

So far my "evidence" is quite shoddy and inconclusive.

GOD could give you evidence if you would park your brain long enough to trust Him. But then again, you don't even know which one is the real God.

Or maybe there is a slim possibility that you do, but just like to argue and challenge others to think. I certainly don't think that Satan has you just yet.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 11:43 AM Phat has replied
 Message 46 by nwr, posted 12-11-2021 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15949
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 36 of 137 (889692)
12-11-2021 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tanypteryx
12-11-2021 11:20 AM


Floyd The Barber?
Pink Floyd was always one of my favorite bands. Religious nutters would insist upon Charles Wesley, but Floyd likely would unite a larger audience.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-11-2021 11:20 AM Tanypteryx has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 37 of 137 (889693)
12-11-2021 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
12-11-2021 9:19 AM


Re: Trust The Source rather than Ditching Him
Phat writes:

Until I get the actual paperback copies of two books that I am ordering from the author, I cannot quote directly how he explains and believes....


Please DON'T quote him directly. Tell us in your own words how he explains and believes.

Hint: Since you usually can't explain the oh-so-sensible "explanations" that you have seen and read, maybe it should occur to you that they aren't so sensible after all.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 9:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:33 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15949
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 38 of 137 (889694)
12-11-2021 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-11-2021 10:49 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
jar writes:

YOU claim God is the evidence.

Buddha?

Thor?

Coyote?

Raven?

They are all Gods Phat.

Silly jar. here is only One God. I believe that Jesus is the One.

IIRC, you were always a fan of the Nicene Creed. Is Thor mentioned? How about Raven? Buddha? Allah? Didn't think so. Quit being a pansy relativist and take a stand for once in your life. Grow a pair...(publically) and quit arguing all sides of the argument. You come across as a definite non-believer. And you don't help spread the message. You only spread critical thinking, logic, and evidence. Which won't get anyone to Philadelphia much less Heaven. (Although I COULD be wrong)


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 10:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-11-2021 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15949
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 39 of 137 (889695)
12-11-2021 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
12-11-2021 11:27 AM


Re: Trust The Source rather than Ditching Him
I WILL quote him directly. This is the Book Nook Forum...not the In Your Own Words Forum or the Science Forum. What do they feed you in Saskatchewan anyway?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:27 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 12-11-2021 11:51 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 40 of 137 (889696)
12-11-2021 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-11-2021 9:32 AM


Re: Believe or Not
Phat writes:

... keep in mind that believers don't simply read every book on every religion as well as psychology.


That isn't what believers tell us. Remember Faith? She claimed that she had studied a myriad of other religions before deciding that right-wing-nut fundamentalism was the One True Religion.

Phat writes:

Believers seek God, not becoming free from Him.

quote:
If you love me let it be
If you don't then set me free
Take the chains away
That keep me loving you
-- Olivia Newton-John
Don't confuse slavery with love.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 9:32 AM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 41 of 137 (889697)
12-11-2021 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
12-11-2021 9:40 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

Enns might argue that God will never be understood...


That's another version of, "Some things can't be explained - so here's the explanation."

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 9:40 AM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 42 of 137 (889698)
12-11-2021 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
12-11-2021 9:47 AM


Re: Sola Scriptura vs Prima scriptura
Phat writes:

Unbelievers such as Carrier throw not only God but the Bible and scripture fully away.


Well, YOU throw out the Bible.

Phat writes:

By what map do they seek truth?


Reality.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 9:47 AM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 43 of 137 (889699)
12-11-2021 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
12-11-2021 11:23 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

But then again, you don't even know which one is the real God.

But I can and do know that ALL of the evidence shows that if GOD exists it is not any of the God(s) or god(s) found in any of the so-called religious literature including the Bibles.

That is a conclusion Phat supported by ALL of the evidence.

So, what can be said?

I profess a belief that there is a GOD and that I will be judged after I die based on my behavior. I may be forgiven my behavior but if so then that is simply by the Grace of GOD.

I am a Christian. That is supported by the evidence that I have been continuously listed as a member of a recognized apostolic branch of Club Christian.

The evidence shows that all religions are just philosophical paths created, revised and supported by the members of that religion or Chapter of that religion.

Only the first of those is a BELIEF and it is unsupported by any evidence. The latter are conclusions and supported by evidence.

As I and others have asked repeatedly, "How do you confirm that you know or commune with some real God?"


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 2:55 PM jar has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5972
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 44 of 137 (889700)
12-11-2021 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
12-11-2021 10:07 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
well jar seems to think that God is a purely human invention. Or at least the Bible is.

The Bible was written by humans. There isn't any other possibility.

It is said that the Bible is inspired by God. Even if true, that could only imply that God was the source of the ideas. The words themselves still came from humans.

When humans get an inspiration and write things down based on those inspired ideas, what they write down is sometimes wrong. They are still human ideas, and humans are infallible.

Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the rocks.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 10:07 AM Phat has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 45 of 137 (889701)
12-11-2021 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
12-11-2021 11:31 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

IIRC, you were always a fan of the Nicene Creed. Is Thor mentioned? How about Raven? Buddha? Allah? Didn't think so. Quit being a pansy relativist and take a stand for once in your life. Grow a pair...(publically) and quit arguing all sides of the argument. You come across as a definite non-believer. And you don't help spread the message. You only spread critical thinking, logic, and evidence. Which won't get anyone to Philadelphia much less Heaven.

Sheesh Phat.

The Nicene Creed is simply one of the defining documents of the Christian Faith. It is applicable only to Christianity and has NOTHING to do beyond that limitation.

I have stated that I am a Christian.

That is also supported by the evidence as I have listed many many times.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-11-2021 11:31 AM Phat has seen this message

  
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