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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
Percy
Member
Posts: 20767
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 76 of 137 (889940)
12-16-2021 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
12-16-2021 12:04 PM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Don't be literal. No god can help you. If there really is a God then the lesson of your life is that God hates you but you're too self-deluded to see it. You're like, "Smite me, beat me, torture me, Lord, I'll never stop believing in You and that You are a loving and compassionate God. Yes, yes, hit me, strike me again, oh Lord."

There's a wonderful set of comic videos that begins with God creating the universe. When asked about various pestilences and disasters and whether He wants to include them in His universe He replies yes to each. When it's suggested that that might cause people to not believe in Him he replies they'll still believe. Give it a watch:

The part where his assistant says it's too much, that no one will believe in Him, and He replies, "Sure they will"? He's talking about you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-16-2021 12:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-17-2021 3:56 AM Percy has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5974
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 77 of 137 (889941)
12-16-2021 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-16-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Resolving A Challenge.
I'll put on my theological hat for a moment.

Likely jar is right in that most of the goats will be Christians, but he seems to think that belief is unimportant and that behavior toward others is key.

This is where modern Christianity has gone astray. It misconstrues faith as belief. But those are not the same. Faith should be more like trust. To have faith in Jesus is to follow his commands, even when you don't fully understand them.

That's the whole point of "faith without works is dead". If you have the faith, then behaving toward others should come naturally. The idea that you are saved by faith alone, is simply that your behavior is graded on effort rather than actual results. The widows mite was a very small amount, but it indicated a lot of effort.

Taking "faith" to be merely empty belief pretty much destroys the whole basis for Christianity.

His idea of God and my idea of God are entirely different.

Yes, they are.

In fact, most of you reject God because the Deity failed to produce conclusive evidence for you to examine.

If people were working together to form a better world, that would be enough evidence for me. But they aren't, and too often it is the Christians who are failing us.

And perhaps thats a weakness of Biblical Christians(people who believe in a literal Bible, an exclusive connection with God through Jesus Christ) and ironically usually a selfish streak in them that would have them protect the assets and interests of their family first...before humanistically helping the world-at-large.

They looks so much like the intellectual heirs of Judas Iscariot. Every day they betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6652
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 78 of 137 (889942)
12-16-2021 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-16-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Resolving A Challenge.
The ideal in *my* mind is that you stop all of this (unknowing) idolatry
(weed ...
Weed is great for unknowing things like pain and depression, and is great for knowing new things that, like majik, pop into existence in the mind. It's also great for munchies. Gotta be real careful here. No chips/dips but lots of crudités, hummus. But weed is good in moderation (and some excess (or a lot of excess)) so I'll keep it.

... porn ...
Most wonderful for stress relief and prostate health. See what you get to do as an atheist? You can beat off without being watched by some perverted angel/demon thing.

... magical belief in cosmology as a universal answer ...

Pay attention, Phat. Not cosmology. Cosmology is just another emergent property. The universal answer is 42, which, if you understood the question means physics rules all. Physics is everything, literally. Physics is the be all and end all. It is the alpha and the omega. The cat's knees. The bee's meow.

Arizona vortexes, and mysterious caves and artifacts, and whatever else you inwardly feel better when employing.

We have a tendency to make these things too complex adding all this crap. Physics is all that is necessary and is quite sufficient, thank you.

Likely jar is right in that most of the goats will be Christians, but he seems to think that belief is unimportant and that behavior toward others is key.

And jar is right, isn't he. Since there is no god, or GOD, or God, or gOd to weigh each of your inner most motivations in the balance of doom on the shores of the lake of fire the only viable measure left is the humanity/cruelty we visit upon each other.

His idea of God and my idea of God are entirely different.

And you are both wrong. A big difference is that jar admits it.

In other ways, you ae blissfully unaware of the spiritual war and intrinsic evil in the world unless it is defined through Republicans.

Republican defined as intrinsic evil, I can accept as a truth of our political landscape, but this spiritual war is only being fought by the one side. No one else cares about you religionist's touting and pursuing this self-serving pseudo-war. And from the numbers year after year y'all are losing.

You don't believe in any sort of Original Sin...

Humanity's original sin could not be helped given the primitive brain structure. That original sin was in allowing religious thought to eat our brains and our humanity. That was early in our evolution so we may have just enough time to recover from that load of bullshit before we go extinct. Hurray.

As far as taking care of myself, I trust science and medicine first.

As it should be.

Now do so in ALL things.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-16-2021 12:27 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15959
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 79 of 137 (889944)
12-17-2021 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Percy
12-16-2021 1:06 PM


Chapter One
Of course, being an Ex-Mormon, Mr.Deity never really knew God anyway. His mousely little commentaries have likely earned him some extra income.

Its not impossible to know God, however. Moses did. Surely he didnt simply talk to himself while on the mountain.
Richard Carrier has no clue who God is, yet attempts to disprove him as a calling..as well as a source of income.

In other news, my book came in the mail today. I believe that you already read Chapter 1.

I will now proceed to comment (in my own words) what the author says of note in each chapter.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 1:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2021 5:24 AM Phat has taken no action
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 12-17-2021 2:43 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8499
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 80 of 137 (889945)
12-17-2021 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
12-17-2021 3:56 AM


Re: Chapter One
There's no evidence at all for the existence of Moses. He exists only in your book of myths.

Moses spoke to god privately on a mountain and gave him a set of rules most of which are blinding obvious and the rest are narcissistic and self-serving? Do grow up.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1309
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 81 of 137 (889946)
12-17-2021 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
12-17-2021 5:24 AM


Re: Chapter One
15...10 Commandments

I'd be so interested to know what the other 5 were...


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2021 5:24 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19537
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 82 of 137 (889947)
12-17-2021 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-16-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Resolving A Challenge.
Phat writes:

Of course, you [AZPaul3] and many here are so anti-theistic...


I think untheistic would be a more accurate description for most of us. It's hard to be "anti" something that doesn't exist.

Phat writes:

... that you will be among the last to recognize that there is but One God...


Well, we'd be the first to recognize a god or gods if there was any sign that they existed. YOU, on the other hand, would deny any evidence of any God that wasn't the one YOU have been taught.

Phat writes:

... known through the character of Jesus Christ....


And YOU are the one who denies everything we know about the character of Jesus Christ.

Phat writes:

I know of nobody here at EvC who would give everything away....


You're fixated on "things". It isn't about giving things away. It's about trusting somebody you claim to believe in. No trust = no real belief. With you, it's alll, "Lord! Lord!" and no demonstrated belief at all.

Practically everybody here would give up all the "things" to help their children, etc. Maybe even you would.

Phat writes:

... you ae blissfully unaware of the spiritual war and intrinsic evil in the world unless it is defined through Republicans.


There's plenty of evil in the world besides Republicans. And the blissful ignorance is on your part, thinking your Sky Daddy will magically poof it all away.

There's nobody to fix the evil but us - and you keep trying to wesel out of it.

Phat writes:

You don't believe in any sort of Original Sin....


Original Sin is not an event. It's an explanation of our human nature - the conflict between self-preservation and preservation of the species. That's why most religions - and religions are social institutions - emphasize helping your fellow man. The perverted cult that you follow is an exception.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-16-2021 12:27 PM Phat has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20767
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 83 of 137 (889948)
12-17-2021 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
12-17-2021 3:56 AM


Re: Chapter One
Phat writes:

Of course, being an Ex-Mormon, Mr.Deity never really knew God anyway.

Mr. Deity *is* God. I think you're confusing the actor/writer with the character, and you've ignored the entire point of my post, that the suffering God has inflicted on you only makes you love him more and sing his praises more loudly.

In other news, my book came in the mail today. I believe that you already read Chapter 1.

I haven't read anything in your book. I was just trying to be helpful by making chapter 1 available to you before the book arrived. Make points that develop out of your reading of the book in your own words and provide book pages as references and quotes as appropriate. Do not quote long passages.

Note my extreme skepticism that you'll be able to properly interpret the book. Based on the Amazon blurb it appears to promote a perspective pretty compatible with my own beliefs, but I think you're well armed to bollox up the presentation.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 12-17-2021 3:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 3:01 AM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15959
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 84 of 137 (890027)
12-22-2021 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Percy
12-17-2021 2:43 PM


About characters in books....
Percy, in another thread writes:

Mr. Deity *is* God. I think you're confusing the actor/writer with the character, and you've ignored the entire point of my post, that the suffering God has inflicted on you only makes you love him more and sing his praises more loudly.

Both you and jar seem unable to see God at all....as more than a character in a book, at any rate. And you are hopefully joking when you claim that Mr.Deity even understands God enough to attempt to mimic Him. I already know your reply! (If jar doesnt beat you to it) Oh wait....he already did!

jar writes:

The point Phat is that the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like. They created Gods that were like the strong man, or prince, or tyrant or friend, or whatever struck their corporate fancy.
If Christianity is to have any relevance and value then Christians need to understand it as a path, a calling, and(a) job description.
GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented.

I will never convince anyone at EvC that believers (some, at any rate) have had an encounter with God. I ask myself why I even keep trying.

jar, again emphasized writes:

GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented.

Perhaps you have a point in that you believe all descriptions of God are made up. I do not believe that this is true. Call me crazy, but I say to get a clue. You all will have opportunities in your lives to change your mind. And it won't be I who convinces you.

Edited by Phat, : changed direction


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 12-17-2021 2:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2021 3:10 AM Phat has seen this message
 Message 86 by AZPaul3, posted 12-22-2021 8:20 AM Phat has seen this message
 Message 87 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 8:24 AM Phat has replied
 Message 88 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-22-2021 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 12-22-2021 10:24 AM Phat has seen this message
 Message 91 by dwise1, posted 12-22-2021 10:30 AM Phat has replied
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 12-23-2021 11:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8499
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 85 of 137 (890028)
12-22-2021 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-22-2021 3:01 AM


Re: About characters in books....
You're crazy

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 3:01 AM Phat has seen this message

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6652
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 86 of 137 (890029)
12-22-2021 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-22-2021 3:01 AM


Re: About characters in books....
You're crazy

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 3:01 AM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 87 of 137 (890030)
12-22-2021 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-22-2021 3:01 AM


Re: About characters in books....
You keep posting things I said in replies to others.

Phat writes:

Both you and jar seem unable to see God at all....as more than a character in a book, at any rate. And you are hopefully joking when you claim that Mr.Deity even understands God enough to attempt to mimic Him. I already know your reply! (If jar doesnt beat you to it) Oh wait....he already did!

jar writes:

The point Phat is that the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like. They created Gods that were like the strong man, or prince, or tyrant or friend, or whatever struck their corporate fancy.
If Christianity is to have any relevance and value then Christians need to understand it as a path, a calling, and(a) job description.
GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented.

I will never convince anyone at EvC that believers (some, at any rate) have had an encounter with God. I ask myself why I even keep trying.

But Phat, you really don't try. I and others point to the evidence while you NEVER bring either evidence or reasoned argument to support your assertions.

Facts.

The God described in Genesis 1 is totally different and mutually exclusive of the God found in Genesis 2&3. Go through the Bible and what you find are descriptions of God that are tailored to fit the narrative. There is absolutely NO uniformity or consistency.

Christianity in fact is about the most inconsistent of ALL the major religions when it comes to descriptions of the God they claim to worship.

You don't try to convince anyone other than yourself. If you are going to change someone's mind and position, you need to offer them some tangible reason such as evidence or a reasoned argument.

You claim to have actually met god and to know god yet every other believer in every other religion can and does make the same claim. What factors might make your claim more valid that that of a Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew or Satanist?


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 3:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 10:30 AM jar has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3302
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 88 of 137 (890033)
12-22-2021 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-22-2021 3:01 AM


Re: About characters in books....
You're crazy!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 3:01 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20767
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 89 of 137 (890036)
12-22-2021 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-22-2021 3:01 AM


Re: About characters in books....
You're crazy.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-22-2021 3:01 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15959
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 90 of 137 (890037)
12-22-2021 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
12-22-2021 8:24 AM


Re: About characters in books....
jar writes:

The God described in Genesis 1 is totally different and mutually exclusive from the God found in Genesis 2&3. Go through the Bible and what you find are descriptions of God that are tailored to fit the narrative. There is absolutely NO uniformity or consistency.

First off, there is no "God" found anywhere other than human descriptions. Wouldnt it be more accurate to say that the human description(s) of an encounter with God as they understood Him differ and are exclusive throughout time?

You seem to frame the issue presupposing that
1) God is found only in scripture. There are many mutually exclusive descriptions of Him.
2) God can only be found in the books.

3) "the Gods of scripture are just human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like"

The fact that you frame it this way belies your presupposition that God is a human product, period. And it is at that point that I will always disagree and challenge your assumption. To your credit, it is indeed true that my argument is designed to reinforce my belief and worldview and in attempting to get others to consider it. You always reframe the issues based on what evidence you have (what the Bible says) and on logic, reason, and *skepticism*. (Not reality.....the jury is not universally in). Of course, you can and do conveniently handwave the claims of believers as delusional and fantasy-based. Your arguments never change. I'll be damned if mine ever will! Go ahead and call *us* crazy!

jar writes:

But Phat, you really don't try. I and others point to the evidence while you NEVER bring either evidence or reasoned argument to support your assertions.

Apparently I never will because I never can. My arguments must be unevidenced and unreasonable, but I would then ask any of you directly why the concept of God (Through Jesus Christ....yes, the Christian One) is unreasonable. WE all know it isn't objective nor evidence-based, though many believers would argue that they became convinced by "evidence" in the way of experience.

jar writes:

Throw God Away.

In my mind, a search for validating a belief does not involve the critically thinking step of attempting to falsify the search.

jar writes:

You claim to have actually met god and to know god yet every other believer in every other religion can and does make the same claim. What factors might make your claim more valid than that of a Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, or Satanist?

Of that list, only the Jew is usually included with the Christians. Anybody can "make up" a Higher Power. In AA, they even claim that your higher power can be anything you want it to be. So let us look for differences among the human categories within this list.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 8:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 11:21 AM Phat has replied
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