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Author Topic:   Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals?
ringo
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Posts: 19612
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 526 of 767 (890055)
12-23-2021 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 521 by LamarkNewAge
12-21-2021 8:12 PM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
LamarkNewAge writes:

John Wayne was an admitted white supremacist...


Less so than most in his day. (He died in 1979, you know.)

LamarkNewAge writes:

... he attacked the education level of black Americans.


So do I. Saying that somebody "should" be better educated is not rabid.

LamarkNewAge writes:

Remember, most blacks opposed the Vietnam war,...


So did I.

LamarkNewAge writes:

... and Dr King was critical of far more than the single Vietnam War.


So am I.

LamarkNewAge writes:

You can rest assured...


I don't rest assured about anything you say.

LamarkNewAge writes:

... that John Wayne would have attacked the Biden pullout of Afghanistan....


So do I. The troops shouldn't have been there in the first place, so I attack that too, but the way they were pulled out could have been handled better.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-21-2021 8:12 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-23-2021 12:00 PM ringo has seen this message
 Message 528 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 5:25 PM ringo has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3345
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 527 of 767 (890059)
12-23-2021 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by ringo
12-23-2021 11:06 AM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
but the way they were pulled out could have been handled better.

Given the circumstances on the ground in Afghanistan, I don't see how. To me it looks like we were fucking lucky that there wasn't a huge firefight with thousands of casualties.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by ringo, posted 12-23-2021 11:06 AM ringo has seen this message

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 528 of 767 (890069)
12-23-2021 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by ringo
12-23-2021 11:06 AM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
John Wayne was a pro-war fascist. He felt that support for the war would gave been impenetrable if not for African American opposition. (I feel blacks were divided enough, on Vietnam, that they were a bit on the irrelevant side - but for the power of the (late) Dr King Beyond Vietnam 1968 speech)

To maliciously sweep away the contrary views, of Black Americans, because they are lacking in "education" (in forked toung speech, that means many things at once, including the fact that the accused refuse to completely swallow propaganda), is just to eerily parallel to the voter literacy laws that came up just after the viral 1896 De Jure segregation movement began in Louisiana.

The beloved FBI was run by 1 single fascist, from 1924 to 1972: J Edgar Hoover.

He felt that the Civil Rights movement was a "Soviet plot" for a Marxist democratisation of the southern United States, which would lead to far-left politicians getting elected. Blacks were smeared by the elite institutions of the country. Their vote simply should not be cast, nor counted.

Learn your history, Ringo.

(See the John Wayne Playboy interview, for starters)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by ringo, posted 12-23-2021 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by xongsmith, posted 12-23-2021 5:37 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action
 Message 530 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 6:13 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 541 by ringo, posted 12-24-2021 11:30 AM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2226
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 529 of 767 (890070)
12-23-2021 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by LamarkNewAge
12-23-2021 5:25 PM


Re: LNA on history
LNA turns his wild accusatory eyes towards Ringo with:
Learn your history, Ringo.

Still brandishing your "I can't read" sign, huh? What ever makes you think he hasn't?


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 5:25 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 530 of 767 (890071)
12-23-2021 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by LamarkNewAge
12-23-2021 5:25 PM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
Blacks were smeared by the elite institutions of the country. Their vote simply should not be cast, nor counted.

Clarify, please. Who do you attribute this view? You have Wayne, King, Hoover all mixed. I can't follow.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 5:25 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 7:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3345
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(4)
Message 531 of 767 (890073)
12-23-2021 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by xongsmith
12-23-2021 5:37 PM


Re: LNA on history
Still brandishing your "I can't read" sign, huh?

The other side reads, "I'm incoherent."


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by xongsmith, posted 12-23-2021 5:37 PM xongsmith has taken no action

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 532 of 767 (890074)
12-23-2021 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by AZPaul3
12-23-2021 6:13 PM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
Hoover called King a Soviet puppet.

Hoover said the civil rights movement was directed by Moscow, and it was an attempt to make the south a "negroe Soviet" state.

Wayne was not simply a benign capitalist. He was more a mix of private/public. He was a major McCarthy allie.

(And he was a John Birch Society member, and he was no libertarian. He was one of the fascist variety.)

Learn you history.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 6:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 8:10 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 533 of 767 (890075)
12-23-2021 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by LamarkNewAge
12-23-2021 7:58 PM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
LNA, I asked a very specific question on a very specific quote you give.

I am entitled to clear attribution when asked.

Learn your manners.

Now, since you get off into the weeds so quickly and easily, I will ask again.

You

Blacks were smeared by the elite institutions of the country. Their vote simply should not be cast, nor counted.

Me

Clarify, please. Who do you attribute this view? You have Wayne, King, Hoover all mixed. I can't follow.

If this is outside your present mental capability, go seek help, but do try to answer first.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 7:58 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 8:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 534 of 767 (890076)
12-23-2021 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by AZPaul3
12-23-2021 8:10 PM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
I will respond but you seem ignorant of the fact that the FBI & Hoover were the first power in the country during King's lifetime.

You are ignorant of the fact that various laws prevented over 80% of blacks, in a large number of states, from being able to vote.

Ringo thought John Wayne was making a call for more education funding in Mississippi (perhaps he is mistaking a rabid right winger, Wayne, with Republican Thad Cochrane? I don't know) I know you will spin that one away. Ringo was probably agreeing with John Wayne's "white supremacy" line, in ignorance. I will give Ringo that benefit.

EDIT

I will find a book quote and respond later. Hoover was king of the land. The FBI was not simply elite, but it was the government.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 8:10 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 9:27 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 542 by ringo, posted 12-24-2021 11:37 AM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(3)
Message 535 of 767 (890077)
12-23-2021 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by LamarkNewAge
12-23-2021 8:49 PM


Re: George Wallace wins 90% of the black vote! Fiction?
you seem ignorant of the fact that ...

Sir, you have no idea of my knowledge or my ignorance. But I think I have taken your measure somewhat accurately.

I will find a book quote and respond later.

I'm confident.

But ... I'm thinking that view was, maybe, yours. Distilled through all that research you've been doing.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 8:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 10:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 536 of 767 (890078)
12-23-2021 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by AZPaul3
12-23-2021 9:27 PM


Ignorance of technical term "reeducation" might clue us into Ringo's "So do I" line.
I dont think he was saying that Wayne's line about supporting "white supremacy", while attacking black education levels, was his view. Ringo needs to learn before he talks.

I will find mainstream articles to clear up the confusion.

I will provide a context.

"Reeducation" and opposition to democracy (which was a "communist tool") were major right wing ideals during the 1960s.

It had everything to do with blacks and war.

Edit:

I just found a November 2021 New Republic article. I found the "reeducation" issue briefly quoted. I will try to get it into its context.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by AZPaul3, posted 12-23-2021 9:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by AZPaul3, posted 12-24-2021 12:18 AM LamarkNewAge has taken no action
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3345
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 537 of 767 (890079)
12-23-2021 11:52 PM


It's not pot
It's not pot. He's high on something else.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 538 of 767 (890080)
12-24-2021 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 536 by LamarkNewAge
12-23-2021 10:13 PM


Re: Ignorance of technical term "reeducation" might clue us into Ringo's "So do I" line.
The question is still whether this disposition is yours. Regardless of who spoke which words, do you agree with this sentiment?

Knowing your propensity to obfuscate by losing track of the discussion, here is the view in question.

quote:
Blacks were smeared by the elite institutions of the country. Their vote simply should not be cast, nor counted.

After all the research you obviously put into this subject, to the point of minutia, do you now agree with the quote?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-23-2021 10:13 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 8 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 539 of 767 (890081)
12-24-2021 2:11 AM


Critical Reading test for EvC posters (I get sick of none of this shit) : episode 55.
Let me start by introducing you to a lady named Angela Davis. I had sympathetic books on her for years but lost them. They were small old school paperbacks, which I took with me everywhere. I even donated one to a library. Enough about me.

Angela Davis earned a doctorate of philosophy, at Humboldt university.

Nuff said (hint)

(O yes, she was also the leader of the Communist Party USA)

Let me introduce you to the fascist censor, John Wayne.

Co founder of the Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals (MPA)

That founding was 1944, and he was made President in 1949.

He was the "black list" maestro before he found one Joe McCarthy around 1952ish.

He proudly ran screenwriter Carl Foreman out of the country. Directors Sam Wanamaker and Dalton Trumbo were blacklisted.

Ironically, J Edgar Hoover "blacklisted" John Wayne in 1963

quote:
Washington Post
1995

He was outspoken off screen as well, and it is a delicious minor irony of his career that at least once he had to pay for it as he had made others do. In the '60s, the authors recount, Wayne was offered the role of narrator for the television show "The FBI story." J Edgar Hoover, after a background check on Wayne, refused to approve him.


Hoover used his power to block Wayne, due to his past affiliation with the John Birch Society (though Hoover was 100% ideologically identical to both Wayne & the JBS. Down to the last dotted "i". Probably a strange calculation on Hoover's part

Now Angela Davis was fired from UCLA, in 1970, and that was the big 1971 Playboy question that got Wayne to make his most racist comments on record.

But more background information is necessary.

quote:
The World of the John Birch Society: Conspiracy, Conservativism, and the Cold War

By D. Mulloy

P. 127

The Birch Society was far from alone in regarding the civil rights movement as being secretly beholden to, if not entirely controlled by, subversive communists foras, of course.Such beliefs were almost an article of faith for opponents of the freedom struggle in the South, and they had also found a home in the highest political office in the land, thanks in large measure to the tireless, obsessive, and often illegal efforts of FBI director J. Edgar Hoover. Convinced that communists had been behind the civil rights movement from its inception, Hoover bombarded the Kennedy administration with documentation on the subject, especially with regard to Martin Luther King's role in the supposed conspiracy. Indeed, the Kennedy's suspicions about the extent of communist influence over King and the civil rights movement is another reason why the administration was reluctant to engage with the issue more fully before 1963


Communists were target - actual communists.

Non communist blacks were also targeted, if they seemed to have a certain political bend.

But actual communists lost their jobs, alot.

Communism was a movement that was solidly against nationalism, and very much required democracy - in its purest form.

Black Americans, in supporting civil rights, fought for democratic processes - with unobstructed voting rights.

Revolutionary for the 1960s, as the right fides not actually exist.

Here is an article, which I will begin with a description of the John Birch society founder, Robert Welch.

quote:
We All Live in the John Birch Society's World Now
Chris Lehman
November 23, 2021

...he and his anti-statist allies saw social democracy as the harbinger of eventual Communist takeover, and solidly insisted that the U.S. was never meant to be a democracy and that the embrace of democracy spelled certain ruin. Recommending The People's Pottage, an anti-New Deal tracy by his friend Garrett Garrett as "required reading" for all Burchers, Welch hailed its clear-eyed account of the Communist-inspired conversion of "America, from a constitutional republic of self-reliant people into an unbridled democracy if handout seeking whiners." A common refrain of the Bircher faithful was that America is "a Republic ... not a democracy. Let's keep it that way!"

....

Welch was a far more disciplined messenger and on-the-ground organizer than the drunken and voluble Tailguner Joe [McCarthy] ever was. ...So when Welch founded the John Birch Society in 1958, he brought the anti-Communist crusade a new aura of gravitas.

But this image makeover also required discipline of a different kind - a concerted effort to weed out the racist, nativist, and antisemitic sentiments of the old anti-interventionist American right, ... Here Welch's record was at best mixed.

While he refrained from the uglier and more overt race-baiting of the right in the wake of the Supreme Court's landmark Brown verses the Board of Education... His conspiratorial mind prompted him to dismiss the civil rights uprising of the 1960s as simply another Communist plot.
....

A host of liberal Cold Warriors indeed indulged the same fantasy of rampant Communist subversion. In 1961 Robert F Kennedy claimed that "Communist espionage here in this country is more active in this country than it has ever been" ; in 1963 he ordered J Edgar Hoover to conduct surveillance on Martin Luther King jr. because of suspected ties to Communist associates.
....

William F Buckley famously assailed the group's obsession with secret Communist takeovers ... "There are ... great things that need doing," Buckley opined in the heat of his anti-Birch crusade in 1962: "the winning of a national election, the reeducation of the governing class. John Birch chapters do much to forward those arms..."


That is the general background set, which was pretty much current with the 1971 John Wayne Playboy interview.

Wayne was a 3 decade long blacklister, who was a Birch Society member as recently as the early 1960s. Wayne was blacklisted himself, by Hoover, but not for being a communist. Hoover did not want a Birch Society member to work, for the networks, on an FBI documentary.

"Cancelled" was the culture that communists were living in.

The black community was a massive target when it came to being labeled & stamped "brainwashed" - and communists were seen, by the government, as the brainwashed.

Then you have the black PhD Angela Davis, at UCLA, while heading the Communist Party USA.

Playboy asked John Wayne about the blacklist/cancel issue:

quote:
PLAYBOY: Angela Davis claims that those who would revoke her teaching credentials on ideological grounds are actually discriminating against her because she's black. Do you think that's true,

John Wayne: With a lot of blacks, there's a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so. But we can't all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until that blacks are educated to the point of responsibility. I dont believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.


It is about John Wayne supporting the "black list", and he is not concerned about college degrees. Blacks need to be kept in place until they have appropriate views. I know what he is saying. Make that one who gets what is going on.

(The EvC crew feels Wayne was making a point about degrees. And the crew feels that they have a legit attack, on blacks, I assume. I see both steps as pure crap, but that is my view.)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(5)
Message 540 of 767 (890084)
12-24-2021 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by LamarkNewAge
12-24-2021 2:11 AM


Troll Flame
The EvC crew feels Wayne was making a point about degrees. And the crew feels that they have a legit attack, on blacks, I assume.

What was said was that Wayne wasn't as "bad" (judgement call) as the modern Nazis of the republican party.

You turn this into EvC's blanket support of racial discrimination as a legitimate attack on blacks. You sick fuck.

And you go on and on thinking you're enlightening us with more old history that most of us here actually lived thru and participated in.

If you're trying to say that Wayne was a white supremacist and a "rabid" (judgement call) racist, few here will disagree. If you're trying to say this whole society sucks rear tit at race relations, I don't think anyone here will disagree with that either.

Contrary to your sophomoric recriminations most of us here at EvC know our history. We lived it. We were there.

As is your habit in these pages you have misunderstood and continue to misrepresent and inflame what other posters say here.

Your caustic inflammatory tone heightens the emotion of events that we already knew were heart wrenching because many of us lived them.

So what are you going on about? Are you here to throw sand in everyone's face or do you have a legitimate topic to discuss?

Edited by AZPaul3, : title


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2021 2:11 AM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
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