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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
dwise1
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Posts: 5076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(4)
Message 121 of 137 (890105)
12-24-2021 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
12-24-2021 10:53 AM


Re: ian? an? Re: About characters in books....
So how is it obvious that GOD is unknowable?

[emoticon of a forehead palm plant]

BTW, I am a life-long member of the "Kill Clippy Club" and as such I view emoticons in much the same disregard, so just look at what you have driven me to with your inanity!

OK. The supernatural is outside of the natural, right? We cannot sense the supernatural let alone observe, study, detect, nor even determine any characteristics of the supernatural including its very existence, right? The gods are all supernatural, right? Therefore, we cannot sense the gods let alone observe, study, detect, nor even determine any characteristics of the gods including their very existence, right?

So what part of that do you still not understand? All that we can possibly "know" about "God" comes solely from what we ourselves and others have made up about such unknowable things. Otherwise, to raise an old metaphor here, how can you tell the difference between God and a bad burrito?

For example, consider the scenario in which you were born blind. What would you know about the color red? Or worse, the color chartreuse (I'm fully sighted with full color vision and that one is beyond me)? What could you possibly know about it, since you could never sense it yourself. Ah, but what about someone else describing it to you? But you live in the Kingdom of the Blind which completely lacks even that person with one eye who would be King. And yet you all talk about chartreuse all the time even though nobody has even the vaguest idea what it is.

And you've made me remember a 1970 movie, Start the Revolution Without Me, a broad parody of classics about the French Revolution which can be classified as a guilty pleasure -- a student of French history absolutely hated it for its gross inaccuracies and mischaracterisations, but much of the repartée is rather clever (my ex' favorite: "Make haste, Escargot!"). You remind me of the Revolutionaries' spy, who was blind. He delivered his report to their leader, Jacques (je crois que), who rewarded him with fine pastry -- actually, he shoved some random stale bread or some such into the blind man's hands, told him it was fine pastry, and the blind man blindly accepted what he was told and thanked Jacques profusely for his generosity.

Phat, you are that blind man. You'll believe anything that you're told or that you tell yourself. Gleefully munching down on pure crap and ever so grateful for that crap.

How is it obvious (and why only to you, unique among Christians) that Jesus life was more important than His death?

First and foremost, NOT JUST TO JAR ALONE, NOR IS HE UNIQUE AMONG CHRISTIANS! Well, maybe not among "true Christians" who are the furthest thing possible from being Christ-like! OK, so I'm not a Christian, but then considering the way that Christians are I am limited to the material that I am given.

Why should Jesus' life mean anything à propos his death? 33 years versus 3 days. 3 years ministry and teaching versus 3 days during which he just lay there doing and saying and teaching nothing.

So then you believe that everything that Jesus taught was nothing but useless crap? That all you need to concern yourself with is to say "Ah buleeve-a!" and, ZAP, you now have a get-out-of-hell-free card? Regardless of what you do afterwards? That there are no moral nor ethical components to Christianity. Why, if you decide that some "non-Christian" (ie, anyone who believes any differently from you in the least part) is deserving of death, then you will "follow Jesus' commands" and shoot that sucker dead? That has happened far too many times and each and every time it was Jesus telling them to pull that trigger.

Are you really telling us that Christianity is so utterly bereft of morality and spirituality? That it is so utterly empty? Then what good is it?

jar writes:

Remember that Germany and Italy and Japan and Poland and Austria and the US and England were ALL religious. And the majority were also Christian.


Is the majority of the Republican Party Christian?

Do they consider themselves to be Christians? I'm sure they do, though instead of being actual Christians they are the near-exact opposite, "true Christians"™. Actual Christians do actually believe Christian doctrine whereas "true Christians"™ are only interested in gaming the system, in exploiting all the legalistic loopholes, and to use their "faith" as justification to hate and even work against those they just don't like. Despite their avowed reverence for the Bible, "true Christians"™ not only have obviously not read it but also act and speak in opposition to what it says. And to top it all off, they worship as their Messiah not Jesus, but rather an almost literal fake-Golden Calf, Trump, who is readily identifiable as The Beast whose mark (MAGA) they gleefully wear on their foreheads.

With the possible exception of worshipping Trump, you have repeatedly demonstated to us that you are a "true Christian"™, not an actual Christian. That is what everyone has been challenging you about and each and every time you have rejected actual Christianity.

Do they resemble the Christians in the US during both wars?

Iraq and Afghanistan? Which two wars are you talking about? We've had so many.

I'll assume you mean WWI and WWII, the first of which involved virulent hatred for anything German and the second presaged by huge support for the Nazis. Indeed, just about the only pre-war opposition to Hitler and the Nazis came from the Communist Party. And American Christians during WWII just continued to persecute others unabated when instead we needed to all pull together and unify for the war effort.

What point are you even trying to make?

Did German Christians prevent the rise of Hitler?

They helped to bring Hitler into power, "Gott Mit Uns" and all that. There's also the 1933 Reichskonkordat, a treaty between the Vatican and the Nazi Regime guaranteeing the church's rights in Germany. It's still in effect and was used in the 1990's against a student group, Bunte Liste Freiburg, to arrest and convict them for blasphemy because of their posters protesting the Church's opposition to birth control.

This is a side note, but I've also read an article on Nazi race theory. It showed that their race theory was firmly based on creationism and the idea of polygenism (the idea that the different human races are not related to each other but rather are the results of separate acts of Creation -- I was surprised to later hear the exact same polygenetic ideas being used by American racists).

Of course, there were some Germans who did oppose the Nazis and fascism. I would assume that some of them were Christians with a conscience, but most of the anti-fascists worked within the only party which opposed fascism, the Communist Party -- gee, just like in the pre-WWII USA. As far as we can see, the vast majority of German and Austrian Christians supported fascism and Hitler -- rather like we are seeing in the USA now.

(and don't lie to us and tell us Hitler was Christian. You will know them by their fruits. )

Well, he was! As were most of the Nazis, especially the most fanatic ones.

Though I do find it refreshing to finally encounter a Christian who is aware of the Matthew 7:20 Test. Certainly no Christian I've mentioned it to had any idea what I was talking about, nor could even bother to look it up. Obviously, they hadn't read their Bibles nor, if they had been the rares ones who have read it, did they believe what they had read.

So apply the Test. A friend at church (UU), Gary, did and it changed his life. He had been a fundamentalist Christian who every day and all day long had to turn a blind eye to everything around him that contradicted. Over time, the mental effort to constant filter everything in order to keep himself deceived led to mental exhaustion. So he examined his religion and applied the Matthew 7:20 Test. His religion failed -- remember that the Test dictates that even one evil fruit marks that religion as evil and it should be cut down and thrown into the fire (a tree/bush metaphor is used). He now describes himself as a "complete atheist and thorough humanist" and he finds that to be infinitely more spiritually fulfilling than his Christian faith ever did. Applying the Test changed his life.

Apply the Test. It could change your life.

Did Japanese religion even count towards anything positive? (Although Hirohito *did* help end the war for them) Douglas MacArthur was a "bigger" god than Hirohito!

Hirohito did make the decision that no other Japanese official ever could: surrender. Every other Japanese official and subject was committed through their direct loyalty to the Emperor to never surrender but rather fight to the death. Only the Emperor could have ever made the choice to surrender. Singling him out for praise for doing something that he had to do and only he could do it would be like praising Pence for "saving democracy" by overseeing the count of the electoral votes (HINT: he had no choice in the matter, though he did try to find some reason, any reason, to shirk that duty).

And Hirohito was an actual god, or at least the direct descendent of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu. MacArthur only thought that he was a god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 12-24-2021 10:53 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-27-2021 3:41 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20770
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 122 of 137 (890114)
12-25-2021 5:14 PM


Some older people have a form of dementia that involves short term memory loss. Anything more than three, four or five minutes ago is forgotten as if it never happened. They can watch the same episode of the same TV show over and over again all day long and enjoy it each and every time.

I recall a conversation with a very old woman a few years ago. We were looking at a photograph from the 1930's showing a group of standing woman with this woman as a girl reclining on the ground in front of them. On the back the names of those in the photo were listed. She'd look at the front and say, "Oh, that's Mrs. Smith, she was much bigger when I knew her." After a while we'd turn the photo over and read the names on the back to see how many names she recognized, and she'd recognize a few and say a few words about them.

After a couple minutes we'd turn the photo over and look at the front again. "Oh, that's Mrs. Smith, she was much bigger when I knew her," she'd say again. After a while we'd turn the photo over and read the names on the back to see how many names she recognized, and she'd recognize the same few and say the same few words about them.

We repeated this a number of times, and she got great enjoyment looking at the photo and remembering the past.

The discussion with Phat feels much like this, but I think he's the only one enjoying it.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by AZPaul3, posted 12-25-2021 6:42 PM Percy has seen this message

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6653
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 123 of 137 (890116)
12-25-2021 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Percy
12-25-2021 5:14 PM


I'm enjoying reading the discussion. And I get to stick my nose in periodically.

I'm all for we should give Phat as much joy as he can handle.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 12-25-2021 5:14 PM Percy has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 124 of 137 (890117)
12-25-2021 7:25 PM


How the Bible works in the US today?
Honestly, in the US today the Bible works almost entirely as a money and power generating advertising tool.

The vast majority of Christian religious leaders whether they call themselves Pastor or Brother or Elder or Priest use it only as a pick your point for confirmation bias generator and cudgel to threaten and intimidate.

The vast majority of the laity never honestly read it or in far too many instances never touch the stuff.

The Bible today in the US is almost exclusively a marketing tool, a propaganda piece, a collection of literature that's only value and worth is to move gold into the coffers of the few and to impower that few to control and manipulate the masses to centralize power and diminish humanity, honor, morality and education.

Edited by jar, : left out for


My Website: My Website

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6653
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 125 of 137 (890118)
12-25-2021 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
12-25-2021 7:25 PM


Re: How the Bible works in the US today?
Yes, the bible has become so. Finally.

As each new generation sees and rejects the commercial/political scam the bible (and by extension all the other religious codices) represents, rebels against the millennia of abuse of religious privilege, then maybe, hopefully, god willing, we can have a new reformation, but, this time we throw out the very concept of supernatural thought.

We throw it out of government. We throw it out of politics. We throw it out of society.

I can’t share your pain, jar. We can absorb all of you, and your charge to help, into secular humanism. Then, we can finally free the human species from this disease.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 126 of 137 (890130)
12-27-2021 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by AZPaul3
12-25-2021 8:21 PM


Re: How the Bible works in the US today?
You will never have the majority that you need. It is as it should be.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 127 of 137 (890131)
12-27-2021 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by dwise1
12-24-2021 9:49 PM


Re: ian? an? Re: About characters in books....
The supernatural is outside of the natural, right? We cannot sense the supernatural let alone observe, study, detect, nor even determine any characteristics of the supernatural including its very existence, right? The gods are all supernatural, right?
According to tradition Jesus was natural.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by dwise1, posted 12-24-2021 9:49 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 128 of 137 (890132)
12-27-2021 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-27-2021 3:41 AM


Phat points out that Jesus was just a human.
Phat writes:

According to tradition Jesus was natural.

So according to tradition Jesus was simply human and not god.

Thank you Phat.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Website: My Website

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 129 of 137 (890139)
12-27-2021 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-27-2021 3:41 AM


Re: ian? an? Re: About characters in books....
According to tradition Jesus was natural.

So then what does that tell us?

quote:
All gods are supernatural.
Jesus was not supernatural.
Therefore, Jesus was not a god.

QED


But you just tried to deflect and divert. Because I wasn't talking about Jesus!

Here it is again:

DWise1 writes:

OK. The supernatural is outside of the natural, right? We cannot sense the supernatural let alone observe, study, detect, nor even determine any characteristics of the supernatural including its very existence, right? The gods are all supernatural, right? Therefore, we cannot sense the gods let alone observe, study, detect, nor even determine any characteristics of the gods including their very existence, right?

So what part of that do you still not understand? All that we can possibly "know" about "God" comes solely from what we ourselves and others have made up about such unknowable things. Otherwise, to raise an old metaphor here, how can you tell the difference between God and a bad burrito?

So what I was telling you was (edited slightly for far greater clarity): All that we can possibly "know" about anything supernatural comes solely from what we ourselves and others have made up about such unknowable things -- that includes all supernatural entities, imagined or not, including "God", which everybody makes up for themselves anyway.

But instead of responding to the point that I was actually making, you chose to weasel out of it. If you have no response, then just admit that you don't.

But then you also ignored the rest of what I had said (extra emphasis added):

DWise1 writes:

For example, consider the scenario in which you were born blind. What would you know about the color red? Or worse, the color chartreuse (I'm fully sighted with full color vision and that one is beyond me)? What could you possibly know about it, since you could never sense it yourself. Ah, but what about someone else describing it to you? But you live in the Kingdom of the Blind which completely lacks even that person with one eye who would be King. And yet you all talk about chartreuse all the time even though nobody has even the vaguest idea what it is.

You have the audacity to quote "tradition." But what else is "tradition" except for everybody before you who had made claims without having the vaguest idea what they are talking about? IOW, making up stupid sh*t, but since they've been repeating that stuff for so long and everybody repeats it then you accept it without firing off even a single synapse. Goebbels' Law in action: “Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth” (a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels).

And almost every time someone repeats one of those lies, they start with "Everybody knows ... !" Like when I got a cold email which started with: "As any good scientist will tell you, the Sun burns half of its mass every year." -- absolutely false (actually, half the Sun's mass is in its core and it's in the core that the sun "burns its fuel (AKA hydrogen fusion) losing about a tenth of a trillionth of the sun's mass every year, nowhere near half) but at least it led me to one of Kent Hovind's worst false claims.

You were issued a brain. Please start to use it.


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19539
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 130 of 137 (890175)
12-28-2021 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
12-27-2021 3:34 AM


Re: How the Bible works in the US today?
Phat writes:

You will never have the majority that you need.


It's probably best not to play the majority card.

quote:
No one in this world, so far as I know - and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me - has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.

H. L. Mencken


quote:
If you're playing a poker game and you look around the table and and can't tell who the sucker is, it's you.

Paul Newman


Majority does not determine truth.

Th "Moral Majority" was neither.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19539
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 131 of 137 (890176)
12-28-2021 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
12-27-2021 3:41 AM


Re: ian? an? Re: About characters in books....
Phat writes:

According to tradition Jesus was natural.


I had a teacher who used to say, "If cows don't do it, it isn't natural."

When your Big Mac rises from the dead you can compare it to Jesus.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 12-27-2021 3:41 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 132 of 137 (890200)
12-29-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
12-22-2021 11:48 AM


Re: About characters in books....
jar writes:

What makes the idea of Jesus ever existing more plausible than Ganesha or Raven or Coyote or Zues or Odin or ... ?

Has Ganesha ever touched you? No?
Raven?
Again no.
Coyote? Zeus? Apart from literary entertainment, I thought so.

You say you are Christian. Has Jesus ever become real to you in any way? What's that you say? Your Socratic humanist teachers taught you that there was no way to tell? And that the Evangelicals were ignorant, greedy, and immoral??

Did anyone tell you that liberals are greedy for power and influence...for the supposed good of society? That you claim to know that no gods actually exist or that ALL of them do? Who is truly ignorant?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 12-22-2021 11:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 133 of 137 (890201)
12-29-2021 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
12-29-2021 12:18 PM


Re: About characters in books....
Phat writes:

You say you are Christian. Has Jesus ever become real to you in any way? What's that you say? Your Socratic humanist teachers taught you that there was no way to tell? And that the Evangelicals were ********, greedy, and immoral??

No Phat, you are simply showing your ********* yet again.

No one taught me that there is no way to tell; rather no one has ever been able to show that there is a way to tell.

Basics Phat. Learn the basics of how to think.

Phat writes:

Did anyone tell you that liberals are greedy for power and influence...for the supposed good of society? That you claim to know that no gods actually exist or that ALL of them do? Who is truly ********?

You have tried to assert such a silly position but have never tried to support it with evidence or reasoned argument.

BUT, have you ever read the Bible Phat?

Did God build the Ark? During the Exodus did the people have to walk, to gather the mana, the honey, the wild partridges and prepare the food themselves? Did God harvest the surplus, build the granaries, store the surplus and distribute it to the needy? Did God gather up the surplus at the fish fry and distribute it to the hungry? Did Jesus tell us to feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, clothe the naked, protect the weak, shelter the homeless, heal the sick?

And it's simply silly to think anyone here other than the utterly braindead has suggested doing good for society.

We are charged to do good for people Phat, not societies, not governments, not corporations, for people.

AbE:

In the message your reply is linked from I asked, "What makes the idea of Jesus ever existing more plausible than Ganesha or Raven or Coyote or Zues or Odin or ...?"

And once again instead of actually addressing what others write you simply tap dance and fall back on word salad, dogma and carny snake-oil salesman palm the pea misdirection.

This way to see the Egress.

Perhaps for once in the years you've been posting here you might actually try to deal with what others post.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Website: My Website

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5977
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 134 of 137 (890203)
12-29-2021 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
12-29-2021 12:18 PM


Re: About characters in books....
And that the Evangelicals were ignorant, greedy, and immoral??

You can tell that, just by watching what they do and say.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil

and yet Evangelicals give us "the prosperity gospel".


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19539
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 135 of 137 (890251)
12-30-2021 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
12-29-2021 12:18 PM


Re: About characters in books....
Phat writes:

Has Ganesha ever touched you? No?
Raven?
Again no.
Coyote? Zeus?


Jesus? No.

No doubt the followers of Ganesha, Raven, Coyote, Zeus, etc. will calim they were "touched" just like you do. Why is your claim more valid than theirs?


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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