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Author Topic:   Do you have Questions for a Gnostic Christian?
Tangle
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Posts: 8548
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 16 of 150 (890233)
12-30-2021 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Greatest I am
12-29-2021 5:48 PM


Re: Gnostic What?
GIA writes:

We are the good Christians because we are not the dim ones who believe in the supernatural.

According to the Wiki, gnostics believe in god, often called Monad. How can a god not be supernatural?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#Cosmology


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Greatest I am, posted 12-29-2021 5:48 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 11:21 AM Tangle has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 17 of 150 (890243)
12-30-2021 11:16 AM


Paul

"Read that as natures decree as it is a truth, or are you denying that men generally want a wife?

What I deny is the misogynistic nature of this very thought."

I see.

Wanting a mate/wife is somehow misogynistic to you.

Seems we have nowhere to go with Gnosticism, you do not want to understand, nor do we define words the same way.

As I said, I can get your kind of discussion/argument anywhere and I do not want it in this thread.

Too disruptive.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2021 11:45 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 18 of 150 (890245)
12-30-2021 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tangle
12-30-2021 3:56 AM


Re: Gnostic What?
Tangle

Wiki is wrong.

See how we think and thought like the brighter ancients.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

The Jesus Myth - Timothy Freke

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2021 3:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2021 11:28 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8548
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 19 of 150 (890246)
12-30-2021 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Greatest I am
12-30-2021 11:21 AM


Re: Gnostic What?
GIa writes:

Wiki is wrong.

You'd best go and edit it and find out whether other Gnostics agree with you then.

So do you not believe in any god at all then?

Are you saying that your form of Christianity is derived from the Old and New Testaments minus the miracles?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 11:21 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 11:35 AM Tangle has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 20 of 150 (890247)
12-30-2021 11:30 AM


Paul

"But those who have been born in this way have denied the sharing which is the corollary of their origin and say Let him who has taken one woman keep her, whereas all can share her, just as the other animals show us.
Seriously, you cannot hold to this religious garbage. Do you?"

You think this our policy?

Where was such a thing ever a thing?

Do you think Gnostics really ignored that men want a wife to call his own?

Your little effort to understand is why we will not get far here.

But on a moral note, sharing a woman is more moral than being misogynous and lowering the worth of a human being.

Gnostic Christians are the good non-misogynous Christians.

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2021 12:08 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 21 of 150 (890249)
12-30-2021 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
12-30-2021 11:28 AM


Re: Gnostic What?
Tangle

Message 4 shows the god I know.

I do not push for veneration of any god concept, other than our own godlike individuality, and the Earth as our creator and sustainer.

If we do not start venerating the Earth, we will likely continue to foul our planet and go extinct.

"Are you saying that your form of Christianity is derived from the Old and New Testaments minus the miracles?"

Mostly the N.T. as we use Jesus' quotes. Rephrase.

We use the quotes put into the esoteric ecumenist Jesus archetype's mouth, while ignoring the immoral Roman created, Armageddon yielding genocidal Jesus.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2021 11:28 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2021 11:42 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2021 1:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8548
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 22 of 150 (890250)
12-30-2021 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Greatest I am
12-30-2021 11:35 AM


Re: Gnostic What?
So like Buddhism but with a different leader?

Atheistic but a believer in the golden rule.

Basically you're me with added woo.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 11:35 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 2:37 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6735
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 23 of 150 (890252)
12-30-2021 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Greatest I am
12-30-2021 11:16 AM


Wanting a mate/wife is somehow misogynistic to you.

No. What is misogynistic is your view of women as mere animals to be used at mans pleasure.

Seems we have nowhere to go with Gnosticism, you do not want to understand, nor do we define words the same way.

You haven't told us what your gnosticism entails. What is there to understand?

You give a site as reference then deny that it represents your views.

Does it involve a supernatural entity or not? You insist not but you then go on to craft religious assertions and speak constantly about god. I've asked before what your vision of god is. Your god of Message 4 is not clear to me. There is a spirituality there but its extent is not clear.

Other than differing statements of faith, what makes your Gnosticism different from southern baptists? from catholic?

If you want to be understood you first have to explain.

So what was your reason for this thread? To inform or to proselytize without challenge?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 11:16 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 3:06 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 24 of 150 (890255)
12-30-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Greatest I am
12-30-2021 11:30 AM


quote:
Do you think Gnostics really ignored that men want a wife to call his own?

But the fragment says that it is wrong to do so. And not for the reason that a wife should not be treated as a possession. Even worse it ignorantly cites nature as an example when in reality animals have a variety of mating habits, varying by species.

quote:
But on a moral note, sharing a woman is more moral than being misogynous and lowering the worth of a human being.

No. Holding that a woman is to be treated as property is misogynistic and lowers the worth of a human being.

It’s also ripe for abuse in a religious context.

It’s a fine example of what’s wrong with religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 11:30 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 3:23 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6735
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 25 of 150 (890259)
12-30-2021 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Greatest I am
12-30-2021 11:35 AM


Re: Gnostic What?
We use the quotes put into the esoteric ecumenist Jesus archetype's mouth, while ignoring the immoral Roman created, Armageddon yielding genocidal Jesus.

So gnosticism is Cafeteria Christianity?

The bible is there except jesus is missing but you keep his words, except the words you don't like, except those you can interpret into liking, all backed by other cherry picked scriptures?

And no god. Kinda defeats the purpose of being christian doesn't it? Nothing to be saved from. Neither faith nor works need apply. Very secular. So why the title Christian? You say gnostics have thrown out the very reason for the existence of christianity.

Of course you can define christian into anything but the usual trope is god centered. So why the name? I like gnostic humanist, myself.

If I have this right, you, as a good gnostic christian, pick and choose from among the various christian motifs to satisfy your spiritual conceptions. And different gnostic sources give different conceptions. Your is sans god. Others are not.

You have a favorite conception of what you believe to be a gnostic religion, which you seem to have difficulty defining, but in the end you have your own personal creed unique in all humanity. Just like every other practitioner of every other religion.

Now, if you want to go on and instruct us in your own personal morality feel free. I have a better handle on where its coming from and can weigh its worth accordingly.

But on a moral note, sharing a woman is more moral than being misogynous and lowering the worth of a human being.

Having this as an example of your morality, I think you can be assured I will be rejecting it.

Edited by AZPaul3, : reword

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 11:35 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 3:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 26 of 150 (890262)
12-30-2021 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
12-30-2021 11:42 AM


Re: Gnostic What?
Tangle

More or less, but I have Gnosis.

Gnosis - The Secret of Solomon's Temple

Do you know what material dualism is?

Religion Has No Earthly Purpose, So Why Do We Cling to It? | Reza Aslan | Big Think

I think the main difference between us is that I speak for both my material side as well as my spiritual side. I listened to both and try to express their thinking.

I do not add woo or even like to tolerate it. I try to take it out by showing that nature holds all the answers and that they match Christianity, when the woo is taken out.

That is why the ancient intelligentsia were Gnostics, of all the various religions, and other guild formed Mystery Schools.

Atheists have finally caught up to Gnostic Christian ways, and that makes the world more free from the harms that the right wing religious do.

Logic and reason have won the God Wars.

Faith without facts has been destroyed by our educating our children better.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2021 11:42 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2021 4:56 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 27 of 150 (890263)
12-30-2021 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
12-30-2021 11:45 AM


Paul.

"What is misogynistic is your view of women as mere animals to be used at mans pleasure."

You forgot that Gnostic Christians are universalists and have all people as equal.

Men are in the same boat.

What do you think we are all here for, if not to please each other?

Our selfish gene and DNA are forcing us to be good to each other.

Can you ignore your genetic programming?

The Golden Rule that guides us, ---- as well as our duty to family, ---- says that pleasure/circuses and bread are to be a persons two main focus.

Further, ignoring that full equality we honor, - --- and given that we think real men will always put women and children first, --- Gnostic Christian men, what we think of as real men of course, will honor that duty as well.

Others will join the Captain Coward Club.

To the rest of your post.

I do not sell a faith. Faith without facts is for fools.

Gnostics live on what is known or can be inferred.

Go back to post 4 and tell me what I call my God and why.

If you cannot understand those words and how they pertain to the supernatural, what can I say.

My highest ideal for a god is me. Who is yours?

If you want to understand a thing, you have to answer my questions so that I can keep you on track.

Opinions are legion.

Clear questioning, is what I seek.

Your answers to my questions, clears up yours.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2021 11:45 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 28 of 150 (890265)
12-30-2021 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by PaulK
12-30-2021 12:08 PM


Paul

Read my last to another Paol, and I think you will see that it is all a communal ownership of all men and women that is implied, and to Christians, that full sharing is called Heaven.

No Gnostic community ever tried it, because it would have killed our parenting instincts, that urge us to protect family and kin over strangers.

That train scenario is great to show how, morally, we should choose to save the many instead of the few.

Now put your wife and family on one of the tracks.

???

I agree that misogyny, and let me add homophobia, have been religions longest running victims of discrimination without a just cause.

Given that Christianity has lost it's way and now follow evil, it is good that it is dying.

All the supernatural believing religions should be banned as teaching lies to children should be discourage with great penalties.

Especially now that we all enjoy secular laws of equality; we should not have to tolerate and subsidize religions that preach directly against the law of the land.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2021 4:15 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1484
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 29 of 150 (890266)
12-30-2021 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by AZPaul3
12-30-2021 1:49 PM


Re: Gnostic What?
AZPaul3

Ah. A Cafeteria Atheist.

You have to many wrong opinion and like putting words into my mouth that I have to refute as long as you are.

You get one polite question at a time, or go way before my bully side tells you to fuck off.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2021 1:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 12-30-2021 3:46 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6735
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 30 of 150 (890269)
12-30-2021 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Greatest I am
12-30-2021 3:31 PM


Re: Gnostic What?
Ahh, touchy. Hit a nerve. Good.

Ok, my one at a time question:

If there is no god in your creed then I question your use of the christian label.

How can there be christianity without the Abrahamic god?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2021 3:31 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Greatest I am, posted 12-31-2021 12:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
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