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Author Topic:   A less bizarre discussion of religious beliefs.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 54 (890281)
12-31-2021 10:59 AM


a few preliminaries
I would like to start by outlining a few points I hope you will accept as being axiomatic.
First, that I believe that there is a god and that after I die, I will be judged. That is not a statement of fact beyond the simple fact of stating what I believe. It is not a claim based on rationality, evidence or reason beyond the fact that I was born into a Christian family, raised in a Christian environment, educated in a Christian school and am a registered member of one of the recognized Christian sects.
Second, that my beliefs will have had some impacts on my behavior over time.

My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2021 11:28 AM jar has replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 12-31-2021 12:06 PM jar has replied
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 12:15 PM jar has replied
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 2:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 54 (890294)
12-31-2021 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
12-31-2021 11:28 AM


Re: a few preliminaries
Tangle writes:
Is the result of this judgement binary - heaven or hell for all eternity?
I have absolutely no idea.
Tangle writes:
Do you attend church every week, pray, get involved in community stuff?
No, in fact I seldom attend church at all these days. Or stores or bars or ...
I do pray quite often, do get involved in community stuff, do actively support a church with time, knowledge, advice and contributions.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2021 11:28 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2021 2:38 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 54 (890295)
12-31-2021 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
12-31-2021 12:06 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
They are axiomatic in the sense of statements about my beliefs; unquestionable and self-evident.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 12-31-2021 12:06 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by nwr, posted 12-31-2021 2:03 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 54 (890298)
12-31-2021 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 12:15 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
Great.
Then on to the next steps.
I see religions as paths and guidelines. They establish a mutually agreed upon standards of conduct. But I do not see any such thing as the one true religion. All of the evidence seems to indicate that ALL religions are purely human creations.
Since I was born into a family deeply rooted and active in Christianity, educated in Christian schools I identify as a Christian. But that's about a restrictive an identity as inclusion among mammals. Trying to narrow things down I am a member of the Anglican Communion which narrows things down about as much as including myself in primates. As with other classifications there is a continuing attempt to place labels so I could say a member of the Episcopal Church USA and then down to current diocese and parish and to the ultimate assurance that there is very likely at least one other Episcopalian that holds beliefs similar to those I hold.
So, what value to I see and how do my set of beliefs effect my behavior?
I mentioned that I believe that I will be judged after I die. I also believe that just as in any trial, neither I or anyone else can know the outcome until after the verdict and really not until some sentence is rendered.
Believing that I will be judged has several ongoing effects on my behavior. I honestly try to evaluate my acts and try to do what is right, not in some big effort but rather in the small everyday stuff. I fail far too often and so almost certainly will be judged to be guilty. If I get forgiven though I believe it will only be through the leniency and grace of the judge.
Which brings us to a difference that have been pointed out many times over the years here at EvC.
I believe (but hopefully will be able to present reasoned arguments in this case) that Jesus' life and not his death is the major gospel to be found in the New Testament and that the same basic message can be found throughout the varied cultures and fold tales and fantasies that make up the Old and New Testaments.
I believe that some entity called Jesus likely did exist and was a Messianic Prophet.
I believe that individual (or individuals if a composite creation) was absolutely and totally human and lived for about 30 years or so.
I look at the recorded sayings attributed to that character and while they are certainly not unusual or unique do seem to outline a socially advantageous path to follow. The basics are found in most all religions and so I have spent many decades also examining Taoism and Confucianism (one primarily oriented to the duties of the individual and the other towards the duties of the ruler), Buddhism, Judaism, Islam and to a much lesser extent the various Hindu and related religions. The common themes of duty both of the governed and the governor can be seen from Balzhiser's Feast (Mene mene tekel ...) to the Eight Fold Path.
So why do I believe that Jesus was simply a human (while here among other humans)? That goes to the concept of resurrection and ascension. Here I'm definitely off into unchartable waters.
If a GOD, a supernatural critter existed it would not be subject to natural laws. It could die and get reborn or recreated as often as it desired. There would be no miracle involved. And I believe in miracles.
A GOD dying and being reborn means absolutely nothing if seen as a human even. A dead human being brought back to life is impressive though. A totally human Jesus being killed, resurrected and then ascending to some afterlife though implies that GOD can do stuff that does not follow natural laws and so might even apply to another dumb human like me.
It's a self-serving rationalization without any supporting evidence, yet there it is in my belief system. It's the steppingstone towards the judgement which really is a significant factor determining my behavior.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 12:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 5:22 PM jar has replied
 Message 52 by Stile, posted 01-07-2022 1:02 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 54 (890304)
12-31-2021 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 5:22 PM


AZPaul3 writes:
Doesn't makes a lot of sense, jar.
Correct. I have already said that.
AZPaul3 writes:
I wonder why the logical disconnect. Was the upbringing that strict or was there some epiphany? What was it that hit you in the head and knocked those few screws just ever so slightly loose? Grandma kept slapping you with the bible until you believed?
Some set of neurons got placed and reinforced that better should not have been. The nature appears strong so I'm thinking nurture did the wiring in that area.
I am so sorry that happened to you, but I'm glad your religious demon is at least small compared to others we see around here.
You're going to slap me silly now aren't you.
Not at all.
But it was my nurturing that shaped my behavior. Even if all such beliefs are simply nonsense does that even matter?
Beliefs are of importance to the individual, but behavior has effects that go beyond the individual. Are there examples of my behavior that you can point to that might seem to justify the above quotation?
There are examples where belief driven behavior creates damaging consequences, the "Right to Life" and "Anti-vaxxers" and "Proto Fascists" that we see in the US today. Phat's disconnection from reality might be included as well, but those are not me.
My point is that beliefs, even those that are totally unevidenced, irrational, illogical and absurd such as belief in the supernatural are only problematic if they contribute to counter-productive and harmful behavior.
Quite often here (and unfortunately it includes me) the emphasis is on condemning beliefs rather than behavior.
Look at the quote from your post and see where it falls.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 5:22 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2021 6:34 PM jar has not replied
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 7:50 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 54 (890319)
01-01-2022 8:59 AM


honestly so far even more interesting than expected.
And also, so far much less bizarre.

My Website: My Website

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 22 of 54 (890321)
01-01-2022 9:36 AM


On nurture from a personal perspective.
In my growing up there were two basic forms of nurture.
The first was overt, intentional and almost pervasive. It was mom softly singing a hymn, usually from the Methodist Hymn book (her dad had been involved in the Methodist church and her grandfather had even written one of the included selections but honestly, I have no idea which one). It was a nightly prayer ritual when each of us silently made a request for each sibling. It was Sunday getting dressed and all bundling into the car to go to church and hot summers Sundays with the stained-glass window panels tilted open and the smell of Jasmine in the very slight breeze. It was the big cardboard fans in the rails on the backs of the forward pew that dominated over prayer book and hymnals.
But there was also a covert and undirected totally pervasive nurture that was filtered by the cumulative effects of the former. When we made the first visit to St. Paul's School for Boys, we were given a tour of the facilities, where the classrooms were, the dorm, the Mansion (it really was a mansion and had been built by Charles Carroll).
Brooklandwood Dec 09
Brooklandwood Marker Dec 09
The mansion was neat and the dorm tiny and there were lots of really big trees but what truly impressed me as a newly minting teen was that there were piles of books and lacrosse sticks and even jackets and sweaters and ties, just sitting on the lawns when no one was around. I asked about it and the answer was, "Oh, the owners are likely off playing so they just pile their stuff up until they go home or to the dorm."
That was the one thing I remember talking about as we drove home. Dad asked if I thought I'd enjoy going to school there and my thought was "That was a place where it was common to assume everyone could be trusted" and that more than the setting, the change, the challenge attracted me.
We are all the product of both nature and nurture but to a great extent each of those is the result of both intentional and unintentional influence.
Edited by jar, : closing )

My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 12:21 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 54 (890339)
01-02-2022 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by AZPaul3
01-01-2022 12:21 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
Very close.
And I think from a religious perspective very important.
AZPaul3 writes:
From the picture I see you paint, you were in a cocoon of love and family and selected schooling. That was your entire world thru, what, 12 years, yes? Unless you are defining pervasive in some strange alien way I might count that as pervasive without the almost. Pervasive plus, actually. You were buried in religious indoctrination. Ubiquitous. Omnipresent. You didn’t know anything else.
An entire world for about 79 years now but in this thread the emphasis is primarily on the initial formative years, say through high school so 18 or 19 years.
Where I think you go wrong though is in your last sentence.
I don't know if you ever read My Belief Statement, but it should still be around here somewhere. It's relevant to this discussion and perhaps if you look back at some of the exchanges relating to Christianity with other self-identified Christians here at EvC may give a better indication that I did know something else.
As I mention in the belief statement the need to question, to challenge even our strongest held beliefs was instilled both in my early family life and also by the religious mentors starting at an early pre-teen age. See if you can find the passages where I discuss my interactions with Joe Wood (AKA The Right Reverend Joseph Wood).
The indoctrination to think, to question, to challenge continued at St. Paul's. For example, the phrase/passage "Fight the good fight, run the race." was a constant refrain. Not win the race, not win the fight, but try your best. And not fight the fight but rather fight the GOOD fight.
Those two passages were constantly reinforced, that what is important is that you try and that you need to try to do good. Not just in big things but rather in everyday life.
But there was also more.
We did have Sacred Studies as a mandatory class. But instead of simple indoctrination, instead of dogma, we were challenged to examine other religions, not as false religions but rather valid religious paths. Over the years that included Buddhism, Taoism/Confucianism, Islam, Judaism (and of course with emphasis on the fact that Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian), and a necessarily broad and cursory look at the Hindu religion. In other classes we got a dose of Greek and Roman and Nordic mythology. We were challenged to build a case that there was no God and then to build a case refuting the position we had created.
There was even more. I was a boarding student living on campus in the dorm. Most of the faculty also lived on campus. School itself only took up about 5 hours a day and only five days a week but the interaction with a variety of other really bright and self-assured even arrogant kids and the easy access to long wide-ranging discussions with teachers in the evenings continued constantly challenging beliefs. The faculty never really expressed what to think but constantly challenged us to question what we thought. The other kids were even harder; they did express what they thought and had absolutely no hesitation in pointing out just how stupid your idea was.
AZPaul3 writes:
Did that gentle warm cocoon of religious inculcation have an effect on your thoughts and thus filter your actions … for the rest of your life?
Absolutely. And again, look at what I post.
The point I'd like to make (and I think it's an important one) is that my religious upbringing and education was what produced not just the ability but the need to question, to look at evidence, to examine reality, to place CONTENT over source, EVIDENCE over belief, REALITY over fantasy.
The reason I think it important is that my education shows that it can be done. It is possible to have a religious education that is more than simply my way or the highway.
AZPaul3 writes:
I think, in my intellectually arrogant and totally bullshit way, I see how your displayed intellect here could have given you rational questions and confirmed doubts yet still be subservient to those nagging … thoughts, feelings … that just won’t go away. You’ve been made to feel inferior. You must be judged. Congratulations, you’re an Episcopalian who got hit with a large dose of catholic guilt.
Kinda sorta but not quite.
It is not a matter that I feel inferior or that I must be judged but rather that judgement is a fact and that one of my duties is to try my best to honestly evaluate my past behavior, acknowledge where that behavior was wrong, try to make amend and commit to doing my best to not repeat the wrong.
It more Judaic in character than Roman Catholic. I don't think I can simply buy indulgences of say a few Angelic Salutations and that's the end of it. I don't think Jesus' death was some payment for my failings; I think it's my job to actually do stuff to minimize any harm I may have done.
I do believe though that after I die, I'll get a report card with an independent evaluation.
And as I have pointed out repeatedly in my posts, I believe that the important things are what you do, and not why you do it. If you look at the parable of the Sheep and Goats what is actually found is a direct statement attributed to Jesus that condemns the "Believers" that don't do and rewards the "Unbelievers" that do.
Go back a look at my description of the visit to St Paul's School for Boys. What I found significant was not religious but rather the element of trust and honesty and respect demonstrated by the fact that kids felt comfortable to just leave their stuff unattended and that adults saw that not just as normal but rather THE NORM. Once I was enrolled, I learned that there were three main rules at the school. There can be no lying, cheating or stealing. But there was an addendum; "And you will not tolerate those who break the rules." There was an Honor Council with reps from each form (remember that at the time it was a really small school. My class was the largest in the school's history with fifty kids total). If you knew someone cheated, lied or stole you went to them and told them to turn themselves in; if they refused then you went to your Honor Council rep and turned it over to him. The system actually worked and worked with the students themselves making it work.
By their fruits they shall be known.
No jump forward several decades. I'm no longer a student but running the computer system and network for a herd of Marine Biologists. One of the sections was actively proposing some really important conservation rules that would have a very high probability of making a major difference in the crabbing industry. the rules were reasoned, effective, would benefit the crabber's income and livelihood within a few short years but cause an initial disruption and added work.
When the report was prepared I noticed that some of the statistics looked just too perfect. I ran the raw data through my own calculations and found that the actual data simply did not support the conclusions. I went to the director and presented my findings. The biologist leading the project was a good friend and in fact been part of the selection panel that hired me, so it was really, really hard to do. The goal was one I thought important and that should be implemented.
But the results were being fudged, the data simply didn't support the conclusion.
The result was that my friend was fired and the project turned over to another biologist. To make matters even more uncomfortable his wife was also a marine biologist working one room away from my office and I was also helping her with data analysis and computer support.
It had to be done though because it was the right thing to do; not because the data was faulty or even because my friend fudged the data but because the data would be published and someone other than myself would also check the figures and it that happened then the whole idea would get canned. Instead, the new project lead tried a different approach selling the idea not on immediate threat but rather on the fact that the data did show a significant future enhancement. While the idea was still not universally popular it did get accepted and implemented.
My indoctrination as you call it certainly has had an effect on my thoughts and thus filtered my actions … hopefully for the rest of my life.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by AZPaul3, posted 01-01-2022 12:21 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 30 of 54 (890347)
01-02-2022 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 12:30 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
AZPaul3 writes:
You don’t think you were cocooned in a religious indoctrination? You think you were allowed to experience other views? You were allowed to explore? Did mom tell you about Mohammad? Did your upbringing involve any other religious training other than talk of familiarity? And yet where was your 8 year-old hinny on every Sunday? Eyeballs deep exclusively in jesus and god.
Actually, it was my dad that took me to meet an Imam who also ran a jewelry store and who dumped a bag of uncut stones out for me to examine and then took the time to go over each one explaining its place in various cultures and at 8 years old I was celebrating Sukkot with my Jewish neighbors (still likely my favorite of the three Jewish mandatory Pilgrimage festivals). It was my ten-year-old hinny that was making treks to the Walters Art Gallery when dad took me with him to the office. The Walters has one of the finest collections of Islamic, Hindu and Oriental art anywhere. There was always an adult there who would help me understand what I was seeing, explaining the symbolism and folk tales and myths and legends depicted.
AZPaul3 writes:
And at your advanced conditioning boy’s school indoctrination camp, I can imagine both Kant and Nietzsche being considered required study for the cultured young man worthy to be a St. Paul’s alum. Maybe covering Kant for your 1 hour philosophy class one day and Nietzsche for an hour the next. You’ve been exposed to other things. You wrote your paper comparing and contrasting god v no god.
Sure, those folk as well as Sartre were covered but in somewhat greater depth. Lots of required reading from similar areas as well and over quite a few years. There wasn't a 'philosophy class' rather philosophy was pretty much a factor in Sacred studies and history and especially in the math classes when it came to algebra, trig, analyt and calculus as well as the English classes. We spent one whole semester on the social, political effects of Al Andalus, Islamic Spain and how in Islamic Iberia there was both religious freedom and the finest colleges to be found in the whole world at the time.
AZPaul3 writes:
You wrote your paper comparing and contrasting god v no god.
How long did that take? A few days?
It wasn't a paper but rather a debate format when each of us had to stand before the class and defend the position. It took several weeks to get through since we each had to build our best case first on one side and then the other.
AZPaul3 writes:
But what did you do before and after classes? If your boy’s cage was like most such cages you attended morning or evening or both devotional services. Sing praises to his name and all pray in unison. Steeped in religious ritual. Daily. Not as a study of some foreign philosophy but as a veneration of a non-existent deity. Maybe not so intense at St. Paul's but still a starkly christian environment washing over your mind every day reinforcing the stories and the hymns your mom sang
Not exactly. Chapel was once a week but it was more than just a religious service. It was also a general overview of what would be happening over the next seven days.
But as I said, I was a boarder. Chappel was at most a half hour once a week and you can check out the Morning Prayer format in the Book of Common Prayer (available on-line to those who are not too lazy).
AZPaul3 writes:
You were allowed to question. Very good. But not too hard. And they apparently quite nicely negated any lingering apostasy that may have crept into your still young thinking. At least for the major tenets if not some the crazier details. Regular church service is good for that.
And what evidence do you base that upon? By the way, while ST Paul's is affiliated with the Episcopal Church it was not exclusively Christian. There were kids in my class that most definitely did not believe there was a god and who did really well when it came to the proposition "There is no God".
AZPaul3 writes:
No, jar. You ended up being exactly the religiously indoctrinated man they wanted. It worked in your case as it has worked in so many others. You believe. You may not be the weak sister that succumbs to the orders of the church but, even in your mind now, jar I can believe that if the church says jump you have to stop and think for a second to overcome feeling compelled to ask how high.
You may well believe that but again, what do you base that upon?
AZPaul3 writes:
jar writes:
It is not a matter that I feel inferior or that I must be judged but rather that judgement is a fact …
And this is where we jump off into religious la-la land. For now, I think I’ll just sit here.
Are you saying that you do not think individuals should examine their behavior, acknowledge their errors, honestly regret such lapses, to try to make amends and not repeat those mistakes?
Edited by jar, : fix quote box

Edited by jar, : appalin grammr

Edited by jar, : No ---> Not


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 12:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 3:44 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 54 (890353)
01-02-2022 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 3:44 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
I still don't see how anything in your so called reasoning shows any justification for an assertion that "You were allowed to question. Very good. But not too hard."
Maybe you can try again to post some reasoned argument or evidence that might support that assertion.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 3:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 5:47 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 54 (890357)
01-02-2022 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 5:47 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
AZPaul3 writes:
Yet with major tenets, like there is a god, I am sure you also questioned but failed to overcome. Why?
Because I have never seen or found any evidence that there is not a GOD.
I'm sure you have seen at least a few of my posts where I have described the concept of GOD(s), God(s) and god(s).
There is also my oft repeated and reposted assertion that if GOD does not exist then GOD does not exist regardless of any belief that GOD exists. However, if GOD exists the GOD exists regardless of any belief that GOD does not exist.
There is ample evidence that all of the God(s) and god(s) we that have ever been described are simply the product of human imagination.
Yet there is simply no evidence that GOD exists or does not exist.
AZPaul3 writes:
My opinion, you were not allowed to complete your analysis due to the constant insistence that such is true bombarding you in both active and passive ways never allowing the counter argument to mature regardless of your doubts. In other words the religious culture shouted down your doubts
I have never doubted that is your opinion however so far you have never presented any reasoned argument or evidence to support your opinion.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 5:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 7:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 54 (890364)
01-03-2022 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
01-02-2022 7:50 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
AZPaul3 writes:
Aren't you saying you have never seen or found any evidence that there is a god and your acculturated conditioning fills that void in your knowledge with yes?
But it is not a matter of filling some void. That is your misconception.
AZPaul3 writes:
But you believe. That tells me your default answer to this question despite no evidence is yes. And I think your acculturation, all that time in the cocoon, is the reason you take this illogical stance. You take a logical reasoned stance on the talking snake so we know your brain works.
Actually, if you put in the effort, you can find one of my posts here supporting the idea of a talking snake.
Seek and ye shall find.
AZPaul3 writes:
And besides, this is opinion and doesn’t need any support. Which is very illogical and, at our age we’re allowed to be illogical whenever and wherever we want. That's what I was told, anyway.
You were not told that by me. There are many times when you can be illogical but not whenever and wherever we want.
If I was presented with evidence that showed there was no god I would have to accept that as fact. I would hope that were you presented evidence that there was a god you too would accept that as fact.
But back towards the discussion of religious beliefs the only issue I can see with anyone's religious belief or non-belief would be when such beliefs or non-beliefs have some negative consequences.
There are of course examples of just that.
My mention of Iberian Islam was just such a case which is why it was one of the points stressed in my Sacred Studies classes at ST Paul's School for Boys back in the 1950s. At that time a major driving force for enlightenment was Islam. The contrast between the Christian world and Muslim world at that time showed the Islamic Iberian culture very much connected to reality, questioning, social equality, acceptance of other religious beliefs and cultures. At the same time the Christian world was typified by repression questioning, social equality, acceptance of other religious beliefs and cultures and placing SOURCE over content, BELIEF over evidence and FANTASY over reality.
Islam during the Iberian Caliphates emphasized learning. Islam taught that everyone, rich or poor, master or servant should be able to read and write. Islam at that time taught that scholars should be free to explore ideas and in fact Jews and Christian and Muslim scholars were drawn to the libraries and madrassa and colleges throughout the Iberian Peninsula. Books and documents were being translated into a score or more of different languages.
While the Christian world ultimately dominated the Iberian Caliphates politically the Islamic ideas from that period also conquered the Christian world. Arabic numbers replaced Roman Numerals and geometry allowed the Gothic Cathedrals to be built. The concepts of individual rights and freedoms and equality that were a hallmark of the Iberian Caliphates eventually resurfaced during the Enlightenment and Reformation. After the Christian Conquest of Islamic Iberia, we found Christianity and the Spanish Inquisition and suppression of ideas that the church found to conflict with dogma.
We can see a very similar situation today in the Avoidance Religious Culture, particularly the Conservative Christian Evangelical Biblical churches. There we see repression, approve media, approved textbook, approved thoughts.
The important point from my perspective is that religious beliefs are not necessarily good or bad. But acts, works are significant. My religious background was being taught to question. It was being taught to look at evidence.
If you have followed any of my posts here at EvC you may have noticed that I often seem to find Christian posters rebuking my posts. One poster here said I should be taken out and shot. Most often it was because I posted something that questioned the dogma they accepted and marketed. Alot of the posts that seemed to get feathers rustled were simply pointing out facts. Jesus was not a Christian. There is no such thing as "The Bible™". Christianity can make no more authoritative claim of being "The TRUE religion" than any other religion. That if there is a heaven it will be filled with atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Satanists, Taoists and damn few Christians. Historically Christianity was spread by sword and fiat rather than actual worth.
It is not religious beliefs that matter but actions.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 01-02-2022 7:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 01-03-2022 12:11 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 54 (890370)
01-03-2022 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by AZPaul3
01-03-2022 12:11 PM


Re: Empiricist Stability
Bye

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 01-03-2022 12:11 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 54 (890481)
01-06-2022 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Greatest I am
01-06-2022 2:14 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
LOL
What an absolute fool you are.
If there is a judge, I have absolutely no control over what that judge might be like.
Surely, you're not as stupid as all your posts present.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 2:14 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 46 of 54 (890490)
01-06-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2022 3:31 PM


Well, I tried.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 3:31 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 3:45 PM jar has not replied

  
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