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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 136 of 513 (890388)
01-05-2022 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Percy
01-05-2022 12:09 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
ringo is right (I think) all evidence is objective.
But not all observations are evidence. Collected data should not be considered as evidence until they have been verified, the role of peer review and duplication.
Second, evidence may change. That does not mean the past evidence was not objective. It may not have been complete but, if done right, it can be objectively obtained and analyzed, even if wrong (cold fusion comes to mind).
IMHO, objectivity has little to do with the truth value of the evidence (also the function of peer review and replication) but in the nature of the data collection and its analysis. Once verified and the community agrees the data was objectively collected and analysed then it becomes evidence. Observation, data, unverified, does not count as evidence for the very reasons you cite.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Percy, posted 01-05-2022 12:09 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 3:22 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 466 by Percy, posted 01-16-2022 8:18 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 137 of 513 (890389)
01-05-2022 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by PaulK
01-05-2022 12:27 AM


Re: belief in the method
So when one of these guys or both claim they represent science you overrule it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2022 12:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2022 5:00 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 138 of 513 (890390)
01-05-2022 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by AZPaul3
01-05-2022 1:34 AM


Re: belief in the method
Except that the guy who says he is a joke of a known liar happened to be the guy that invented mrna vaccine, no? Why would we favour the one opinion over the other?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by AZPaul3, posted 01-05-2022 1:34 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2022 4:39 PM drlove has replied
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2022 5:18 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 139 of 513 (890391)
01-05-2022 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by dwise1
01-05-2022 1:40 AM


Re: belief in the method
Now you are trying to favour one media over another based on one media making unsubstantiated claims about other media.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by dwise1, posted 01-05-2022 1:40 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by dwise1, posted 01-05-2022 4:33 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 140 of 513 (890392)
01-05-2022 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
01-05-2022 2:00 AM


Re: belief in the method
CNN? Ha Twitter? Facebook? Infowars? The point is that there is no such thing as a single voice for science or for politics, or media truth and etc

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2022 2:00 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2022 5:04 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 141 of 513 (890393)
01-05-2022 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by AZPaul3
01-05-2022 9:53 AM


So fauci and all others should check with you before claiming science? Good luck with that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by AZPaul3, posted 01-05-2022 9:53 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 142 of 513 (890394)
01-05-2022 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by dwise1
01-05-2022 2:57 AM


Re: belief in the method
Supernatural? I think that means anything beyond what natural knowledge deals with. Maybe like claiming laws break down before the Bib Bang or some such? How would I know all physics ceased to exist any more than I would know that an angel someone saw was real or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by dwise1, posted 01-05-2022 2:57 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2022 4:34 PM drlove has replied
 Message 149 by dwise1, posted 01-05-2022 4:43 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 143 of 513 (890395)
01-05-2022 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by dwise1
01-05-2022 2:57 AM


Re: belief in the method
Maybe let's hunt one duck at a time

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by dwise1, posted 01-05-2022 2:57 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 144 of 513 (890396)
01-05-2022 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Percy
01-05-2022 12:09 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Just curious. If we completely removed the human element, would there be science or evidence at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Percy, posted 01-05-2022 12:09 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 145 of 513 (890397)
01-05-2022 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by AZPaul3
01-05-2022 2:05 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Some things could never be verified. So should we file all of that under magic, or belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by AZPaul3, posted 01-05-2022 2:05 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 146 of 513 (890398)
01-05-2022 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by drlove
01-05-2022 3:14 PM


Re: belief in the method
Hm, I smell troll. Yuk!
Now you are trying to favour one media over another based on one media making unsubstantiated claims about other media.
Just what the hell are you talking about? If you have a particular case of "unsubstatiated claims" in mind (other than the bat quano nonsense posted on your wnd site), then present it!
In the case of science regarding the supernatural, science only says that it cannot deal with the supernatural and hence cannot use it.
Just as my computer keyboard cannot deal with photographs or music, so it cannot use either of those two media as input. If you truly think that that means that my keyboard is making unsubstantiated claims about photos or music, then please explain yourself.
Dang, the stench of troll is getting strong!
 
"drlove". Does that mean that you're a "true Christian"™? Their Orwellian distortion of the word "love" is very well-known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 3:14 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 4:55 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 147 of 513 (890399)
01-05-2022 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by drlove
01-05-2022 3:19 PM


Re: belief in the method
Supernatural? I think that means anything beyond what natural knowledge deals with.
And you think incorrectly. Supernatural means imaginary (although imaginary numbers are not supernatural). There is no such thing as natural knowledge.
Maybe like claiming laws break down before the Bib Bang or some such?
Nope, incorrect again.
How would I know all physics ceased to exist any more than I would know that an angel someone saw was real or not?
Not, but we are pretty sure that you don't know anything.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 3:19 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 4:56 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 148 of 513 (890400)
01-05-2022 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by drlove
01-05-2022 3:13 PM


Re: belief in the method
drlove writes:
Except that the guy who says he is a joke of a known liar happened to be the guy that invented mrna vaccine, no? Why would we favour the one opinion over the other?
It wouldn't matter a toss if he was Micky Mouse in drag buggering the Pope.
Science stands independent of the scientist and regardless of media.
Science's great value is that it works. It has to be able to be demonstrated to work to others. If it doesn't work it's called something else - a story, a belief, a myth, a religion, a mistake - whatever.
We're fond and proud of our scientists but it's the scientific method not the scientist that makes science work.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 3:13 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 4:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 149 of 513 (890401)
01-05-2022 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by drlove
01-05-2022 3:19 PM


Re: belief in the method
Supernatural? I think that means anything beyond what natural knowledge deals with.
Hey, you yourself said in Message 128: " ... things that involve more than the natural laws the bind science." That pretty much fits the definition of supernatural.
If you think that you're talking about something different, then simply state so. Though I rather doubt that your troll nature will allow you to.
 
Are we to assume that you are also a creationist (and not in the nice sense)? A young-earther too? Then look into "contributing" to one of the topics on that subject. Though with actual claims, not the vague innuendo you've been waving about reeking of decaying bat quano.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 3:19 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jar, posted 01-05-2022 4:54 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 157 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-05-2022 5:00 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 158 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 5:01 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 513 (890402)
01-05-2022 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by dwise1
01-05-2022 4:43 PM


Re: belief in the method
What the Christian Cult of Ignorance insists on ignoring is that science is based not on belief but rather on doubt. It is doubt that requires science to independently test observations and to use a variety of tests to see if an assumption holds true.
Belief plays no place or function in science just as source is far less important than content.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by dwise1, posted 01-05-2022 4:43 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by drlove, posted 01-05-2022 4:59 PM jar has replied

  
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