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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 513 (890496)
01-06-2022 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by jar
01-06-2022 7:58 AM


Phrases have meaning whether you agree with them or not.
jar writes:
Why do so many "Christians" even accept such utter nonsense and allow the apologists and preachers and pastors and elders to get away with spouting gobbledygook?
Because a large percentage of us believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. We have no evidence. You seem to insist on me accepting the point that there is no evidence. What I am trying to get you to accept is that for many of us, belief and inner confirmation are enough. Call it gobbledygook or fantasy if you prefer.
You charge Biblical Christians with fantasy-based unevidenced belief.
My response is so what? Why do you dislike us so much? What if some of what we claim to foresee actually occur? Would it bother you if more people committed to becoming believers rather than sticking with logic, reason, and evidence-based reality? What specifically do you pity about Biblical Christians? Is it the fact that many of the Biblical Christians are Republicans? Is it the fact that we often engage in unevidenced fantasy? What I don't like about you is that you openly accept an unknown God.
You insist on limiting Jesus to human status. And the basis of your Christian worldview is that *we* have to do all of it. We seem to believe that Jesus is living and active and can and will help us. You wave the evidence card in our face and tell us that no one has ever been able to explain how this could be possible. And yet you even abhor believing that Jesus could do it. That He could be eternal. The rift between us is infinitely wide.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 7:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 6:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 227 of 513 (890499)
01-06-2022 6:14 PM


We keep seeing the bizarre need to redefine science as religion by the ignorant, drive-bye, ant-science crowd. It baffles me that they think so little of their religion that they want to make science equal to it.
It's weird because every scientist knows that as soon as you use beliefs as any basis for your science, it's not science anymore.
Of course, that is the true aim of the anti-science dimwits, to try and discredit and ultimately stop all science in the U.S. This is at the top of the wishlist for China and Russia.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 8:11 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 228 of 513 (890500)
01-06-2022 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
01-06-2022 4:54 PM


Re: Phrases have meaning whether you agree with them or not.
Phat writes:
Because a large percentage of us believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. We have no evidence. You seem to insist on me accepting the point that there is no evidence. What I am trying to get you to accept is that for many of us, belief and inner confirmation are enough. Call it gobbledygook or fantasy if you prefer.
But in the case of the Bible being a purely human construct there is overwhelming evidence.
You have no evidence while I have overwhelming evidence.
Phat writes:
My response is so what? Why do you dislike us so much? What if some of what we claim to foresee actually occur? Would it bother you if more people committed to becoming believers rather than sticking with logic, reason, and evidence-based reality?
If something you claim actually comes true then there would possibly be some evidence.
Of course it would bother me if even more people became what you call believers but what in reality is delusional fantasists.
A population that operates of SOURCE over content, BELIEF over evidence and FANTASY over reality is a world gone mad.
Remember Phat, just as I am a Christian, I am also a Republican. But I am not a member of the Christian Cult of Ignorance or of the current Fascist party that has adopted the GOP name.
Phat writes:
What I don't like about you is that you openly accept an unknown God.
But Phat, all the evidence, ALL of the evidence supports the conclusion that if GOD exists it is an unknown God. I am open to you providing evidence or process or procedure or plan or model or mechanism or method that anyone could know GOD.
Phat writes:
You insist on limiting Jesus to human status. And the basis of your Christian worldview is that *we* have to do all of it. We seem to believe that Jesus is living and active and can and will help us. You wave the evidence card in our face and tell us that no one has ever been able to explain how this could be possible. And yet you even abhor believing that Jesus could do it. That He could be eternal. The rift between us is infinitely wide.
I can see absolutely no value to Jesus' death if he was not simply human.
But wait, there's more.
And I and others have gone over this with you repeatedly.
Did human have to build the Ark?
Did the Israelites have to walk out of Egypt on their own two feet?
Did human have to go out in the morning and gather the mana and catch the wild pheasants and partridges?
Did humans have to plant the crops, harvest the crops, build the granaries, store the surplus, distribute the food to the needy during the lean years?
Did people have to gather up the leftovers from the fish fry and distribute it to the hungry?
Did Jesus say that we should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, protect the weak, heal the sick and comfort the sorrowful?
You want someone else to do it, you want someone else to solve the problems, you want Holy Jeeves.
Fantasy is always easier. Letting Jeeves do it is always easier. Selling salvation is always more profitable.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Have you ever read the Bible Phat?
Edited by jar, : part ---> party

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 01-06-2022 4:54 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 8:13 PM jar has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 229 of 513 (890501)
01-06-2022 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2022 4:18 PM


Re: belief in the method
Anyhow, deal with it. At least state some position clearly. If you feel some need to define what you BELIEVE a scientific theory is, go ahead. Just drop the empty whining routine.
Try to remember that you have an opinion. Upchucking out ridiculous proclamations and insults does nothing more than show you are full of pious hot puss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 4:18 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 9:03 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 230 of 513 (890502)
01-06-2022 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2022 6:14 PM


Rather than cry like a baby, try to show your belief set to be something other than what millions of people know it to be. Don't waste our time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 6:14 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 8:30 PM drlove has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 231 of 513 (890503)
01-06-2022 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
01-06-2022 6:30 PM


Re: Phrases have meaning whether you agree with them or not.
quote:
ALL of the evidence supports the conclusion that if GOD exists it is an unknown God
False. He is well known.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 6:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 01-07-2022 7:07 AM drlove has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 232 of 513 (890504)
01-06-2022 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by drlove
01-06-2022 8:11 PM


Rather than cry like a baby, try to show your belief set to be something other than what millions of people know it to be.
Is English your second language or something? I have no idea what you are saying here. I don't know what a belief set is and I don't have millions of followers, only a million +-.
Don't waste our time.
I have no control over your time, that's why it's called your time.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 8:11 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 1:27 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 233 of 513 (890505)
01-06-2022 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by drlove
01-06-2022 8:10 PM


Re: belief in the method
At least state some position clearly.
I use the scientific method to systematically attempt to understand observations made in my chosen fields. I also try to follow advances in a wide range of scientific fields that interest me.
This is a really cool time to be a scientist. It has never been easier for scientists to communicate than now and to exchange ideas and data with your peers and between disciplines.
The BS you are peddling is easy to spot and I will not let it bias my scientific observations or conclusions.
I expect this will not be clear enough for you and that you will continue to be the whiny bitch.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 8:10 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 1:29 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 234 of 513 (890508)
01-07-2022 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2022 8:30 PM


More spam blather. Boring. I prefer intelligent debate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 8:30 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 235 of 513 (890509)
01-07-2022 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2022 9:03 PM


Re: belief in the method
Great, you use the scientific method in some unmentioned field. So what? Would not the two doctors in the OP do something similar?
You do confirm that science is pretty well a religion to some people though, by taking offence to the fact some faith is involved.
Oh, and by the way, interpreting evidence involves belief and in a systematic way!
Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 9:03 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by dwise1, posted 01-07-2022 1:39 AM drlove has replied
 Message 261 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-07-2022 6:36 PM drlove has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 236 of 513 (890511)
01-07-2022 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by drlove
01-06-2022 2:38 PM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
We can have faith (using the word in its confidence in outcomes sense) in science, as a result of science needing to be falsifiable.
Here is an extract from the Wiki page on the scientific method:
A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question. The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments or studies. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment or observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested.
So science has to be capable of being falsified, in order to be science. That's how it works.
So far, the vast field of science has not been falsified in any major way. It has been refined and improved, and no doubt will continue to be. But everything we do and use in modern society assumes that science will work. For example, Sat nav systems take general relativity into account - and guess what ! They work !
As yet, the only people with beards who are involved in the Sat nav system are those male Sat nav scientists and engineers who choose to wear them.
So when it comes to having faith in something guiding me safely and efficiently from home to a new garden centre my wife would like us to visit, I put mine in the (sometimes) bearded folk of science, rather than getting in my car and having faith in some bearded bloke from some iron age stories, to tell me where to go.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by drlove, posted 01-06-2022 2:38 PM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 2:09 AM vimesey has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 237 of 513 (890512)
01-07-2022 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by drlove
01-07-2022 1:29 AM


Re: belief in the method
This fucking idiot is nothing but a mindless troll.
Stop feeding him! Let him slink back under his slimy rock.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 1:29 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 1:51 AM dwise1 has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 238 of 513 (890513)
01-07-2022 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by dwise1
01-07-2022 1:39 AM


Re: belief in the method
coward

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by dwise1, posted 01-07-2022 1:39 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by dwise1, posted 01-07-2022 2:03 AM drlove has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 239 of 513 (890514)
01-07-2022 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by drlove
01-07-2022 1:51 AM


Re: belief in the method
Troll.
You are not worth any waste of my time. Slither back to your slimy den.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 1:51 AM drlove has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by drlove, posted 01-07-2022 2:11 AM dwise1 has replied

  
drlove
Member (Idle past 791 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 01-02-2022


Message 240 of 513 (890515)
01-07-2022 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by vimesey
01-07-2022 1:37 AM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
quote:
We can have faith (using the word in its confidence in outcomes sense) in science, as a result of science needing to be falsifiable.
That is not the issue. The issue is not having faith or not IN a religion. The issue is whether that religion is a religion.
quote:
Here is an extract from the Wiki page on the scientific method:
A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question.
Yet that same 'knowledge, in the case of the OP cannot be actual knowledge! Otherwise thousands of men of science on both sides could not use it! What we actually have is falsely called knowledge. A misuse of the English language and a lie using word games.
quote:
The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments or studies. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment or observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested.
Again, false! In the OP and other articles I posted, we see scientific studies that say that for example masks are basically useless. In one article I linked there were 150 studies cited! Yet the other side claims they have tests that show the opposite! So what we really have is faith. Belief. Interpreting data, and hiring scientists to say what we want said. That is not knowledge.
quote:
So far, the vast field of science has not been falsified in any major way.
That says nothing. When we look at specifics we see that it is a fool's notion to assume that faith based theories that are based on the natural world could ever be held to some falsification standard when dealing with things that are spiritual or supernatural. The whole concept of falsification assumes that they have some ability or power TO be able to falsify! That ability is limited in the fields of science. In some cases it applies. In other cases, such as origin sciences, and cosmology, and dating and etc it does not apply! Falsification for many so called sciences is just an impossible charade and facade to protect the system of beliefs that is science! A shrill hypocrisy used by the weak and cowardly and ignorant to try and protect their beliefs when they are intellectually unable to do so!
quote:
As yet, the only people with beards who are involved in the Sat nav system are those male Sat nav scientists and engineers who choose to wear them.
Sorry, I don't share your fear of beards. Hey, Darwin had one!
quote:
So when it comes to having faith in something guiding me safely and efficiently from home to a new garden centre my wife would like us to visit, I put mine in the (sometimes) bearded folk of science, rather than getting in my car and having faith in some bearded bloke from some iron age stories, to tell me where to go.
You are welcome to have faith in whatever you like. If the satellites happen to go down in a war or something, hopefully, if you are still alive, you have the wherewithal to find your way home anyhow. Good luck.
Edited by drlove, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by vimesey, posted 01-07-2022 1:37 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by vimesey, posted 01-07-2022 3:00 AM drlove has replied

  
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