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Author Topic:   A less bizarre discussion of religious beliefs.
jar
Member
Posts: 33648
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 46 of 54 (890490)
01-06-2022 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tanypteryx
01-06-2022 3:31 PM


Well, I tried.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 3:31 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-06-2022 3:45 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2770
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 47 of 54 (890491)
01-06-2022 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
01-06-2022 3:43 PM


Well, at least you're not an a hole.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 01-06-2022 3:43 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8321
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 48 of 54 (890494)
01-06-2022 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Greatest I am
01-06-2022 2:25 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
GIA writes:

Tangle
A holes like you try to put the supernatural woo where there is none.

That seems unlikely given that I'm an atheist.

A holes insult others without purpose, except to show that are a holes who have no clue about what they are talking about.

I had to look up what you'd were so offended by. I inferred you were a deist with added woo! Truth often offends I suppose.

But seriously, you don't believe in Christianity but you keep quoting the bible at us. You must find that hilarious. I know I do.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 2:25 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 4:57 PM Tangle has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1478
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 49 of 54 (890497)
01-06-2022 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
01-06-2022 4:04 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
The stupid are easily amused.

Especially stupid a hole atheists who do not know much about religions.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2022 4:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2022 5:18 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8321
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


(4)
Message 50 of 54 (890498)
01-06-2022 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Greatest I am
01-06-2022 4:57 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
GIA writes:

Especially stupid a hole atheists who do not know much about religions.

You do know that you can write 'arse' if that's what you mean? A hole atheist seems a bit daft - I live in a very conventional house.

who do not know much about religions.

Being baptised a Christian and subject to Christian indoctrination until my teens, I suspect I know at least as much as you about Christianity. As for your bizarre form of it I admit to being more than a little bemused about.

Christianity without god is like discovering a turd that didn't originate from an arse - rather difficult to place.

You could have tried to explain your religion/belief/tradition without alienating the entire board but that's your choice I guess.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 4:57 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2770
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 51 of 54 (890530)
01-07-2022 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Greatest I am
01-06-2022 2:25 PM


Re: On nurture from a personal perspective.
How polite of you to notice.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Greatest I am, posted 01-06-2022 2:25 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4048
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(3)
Message 52 of 54 (890531)
01-07-2022 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
12-31-2021 2:42 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
jar writes:

It's the steppingstone towards the judgement which really is a significant factor determining my behavior.

I also think this is important.

Not judgement by GOD - that's your faith.
But judgement being a significant factor in determining behaviour - this is important to me, as well.

I simply do not wait for that judgement to come from GOD after I die.
I allow for that judgement to come from the people around me - the ones my actions affect.

I want to fit into my environment.
I want to have prosperous relationships with the people around me.
I like having people around me and being part of a social community.

That being said, I highly value the judgements from all other members of my social community or "tribe" or "any and all people that my actions affect."

Positive judgements affect my behaviour along a path to repeat or enhance such actions in order to repeat or enhance such judgements.
Negative judgements affect my behaviour along a path to reduce or eliminate such actions in order to reduce or eliminate such judgements.

I think the idea we share on "behaviour is affected by our beliefs/experiences and being-held-accountable-for-our-actions is an important aspect" is very similar.

I also don't think it matters that I am 'held accountable' immediately, and you're 'held accountable' when you die.
-I think this will matter for certain individuals
-some will gravitate to one or the other
-some will 'take advantage' of certain things (held accountable by people isn't the same as being held accountable by a supreme-being-GOD... as well, being held accountable immediately is different than being held accountable after death...)

I think what matters is treating others nicely.
-the idea that I appreciate 'being held accountable' in order to influence my desire to be nice to others is inconsequential
-therefore, the idea on 'when' being held accountable occurs is even moreso inconsequential... in a theoretic-sort-of-way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 12-31-2021 2:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 01-07-2022 2:37 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4048
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 53 of 54 (890532)
01-07-2022 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
12-31-2021 7:50 PM


AZPaul3 writes:

I would counter that unevidenced, irrational, illogical and absurd beliefs in the supernatural are only problematic if they enter the human mind ... at all.

And I would counter that people are different.
Therefore, speaking in absolutes about how people should think/believe is problematic... at all.

Being extremely rational and looking for evidence on everything can be... bland.
It can also be detrimental to certain people.

I see 3 basic levels of intelligence:

1. Ability to learn based on self-experience.
("I burnt my finger on the flame - don't touch a lit candle.")

2. Ability to learn based on other's-experience or manipulation of self-experience.
("I saw that other person burn their finger on the candle's flame - don't touch an exhaust pipe because sometimes flames come out and it could burn me.")

3. Ability to learn based on imagination.
-I don't have an example for this level, because I don't think I've ever imagined something that's not based on my previous experience in some way
-this would be people we describe as "genius"
-such people have the ability to think of things that no one else can, and no one else ever has before them
-they can be geniuses in art or science or almost anything, but the results are the same - they are capable of learning something that no one else has ever learned before, and no one (including them) has ever witnessed before, either

If what I state above has any connection to reality... how could a genius imagine something not based on their previous experience at all... therefore not based on evidence at all?

Pure genius REQUIRES the ability to have unevidenced, irrational ideas and then make judgements calls to see if they actually can fit into reality and are evidenced and logical.

I will happily admit that such circumstances for when unevidenced, irrational ideas should be used will be extremely rare and only handled by those who can make proper evidenced/rational judgement calls in applying them to the reality we all share....

But to say such things are problematic if they "enter the human mind at all" is just... well... shutting off one of the most amazing parts of being human that's available to us.

As I was saying, people are different.
Many people will think in many different ways.
Some think in text (reading words in their mind as they think about ideas.)
Some think in ideas (flashing images/feelings in their mind and then formulate words/language to express them.)
Some think with one inner voice.
Some think with two inner voices that argue/discuss options.
Some think with multiple inner voices to a level where those inner voices can almost be their own 'separate identity' within the same brain.

To think that because "evidence and rational ideas" lead to many, many good things... therefore "evidence and rational ideas" are the only path to good things, and everyone should only ever follow that path.... to me is just as bad as religious people saying we should all/only follow their ideas.

It's a box.
It's restrictive.
It's oppressing.

May very well be "better" than some other forms of oppression.

But there are still better ways beyond that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2021 7:50 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33648
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 54 of 54 (890533)
01-07-2022 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Stile
01-07-2022 1:02 PM


Re: a few preliminaries
Stile writes:

I also think this is important.

Not judgement by GOD - that's your faith.
But judgement being a significant factor in determining behaviour - this is important to me, as well.

I simply do not wait for that judgement to come from GOD after I die.
I allow for that judgement to come from the people around me - the ones my actions affect.

I very much agree with the idea of self-retrospection and in fact it is a significant duty in all three of the Abrahamic/Masoretic religions.

In Christianity specifically it is the Rite of Confession where you are charged to honestly evaluate your behavior, acknowledge your failures, attempt to amend any harm caused and honestly consciously try not to repeat those errors.

Judgement is not only after you die but should be an ongoing repetitive part of daily life.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Stile, posted 01-07-2022 1:02 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
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