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Author
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Topic: Belief Versus The Scientific Method
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Re: Science vs pseudoscience
I don't know any of these people as I don't delve into garbage but the 'Pfizer Chief' intrigued me. Turns out he he got pretty much everything wrong. This is just one of his statements.
And "In October, Yeadon wrote a column for the United Kingdom’s Daily Mail newspaper that also appeared on MailOnline, one of the world’s most-visited news websites. It declared that deaths caused by COVID-19, which then totaled about 45,000 in Britain, will soon “fizzle out” and Britons “should immediately be allowed to resume normal life.” Since then, the disease has killed about another 80,000 people in the UK." It looks like he's gone a bit mad. Change of personality stuff. The ex-Pfizer scientist who became an anti-vax hero.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Re: Science vs pseudoscience
PorkiePies writes: What you mean is that you don't listen to opposing arguments. A few, I do try to read up on the less insane ones. But one crackpot is pretty similar to the next. That's why I looked up the Pfizer guy, he was once an actual scientist but he's now obviously not. Even if you don't want to read about his psychosis, his predictions are well documented and have been shown to be wrong. So that's that.
Just because he was wrong about one speculation doesn't dismiss his claims about everything else. Well in this case it does I'm afraid. When a scientist makes a prediction and it's proven false, then the hypothesis fails. And, if you read the article he predicted a lot and got it wrong. Sorry, he's lost the plot.
And besides, with the inflated death counts he was probably right.
Yeh, it's that conspiracy again...
Anyway the point is that the mainstream are shutting down debate cos they know they will loose. Its unscientific and one of Karl Poppers red flags of pseudoscience and its shutting down free speech, a foundation of western democracy Now you're just blabbering. Look, some lucky parts of the Western World are at a tipping point with this virus now. A combination of the vaccines, immunity resulting from previous infection, a less harmful variant out-competing more harmful ones and effective anti-virals that deal with severe disease we're almost at the endemic level. We can now begin to have serious discussions about removing restrictions and returning to normality. And you can stop feeling persecuted for you ignorant beliefs.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 428 of 513 (890979)
01-13-2022 3:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 418 by drlove
01-12-2022 5:49 PM
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Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
drlove writes: "The creation of a vaccine involves scientists and medical experts from around the world, and it usually requires 10 to 15 years of research before the vaccine is made available to the general public. The first step of this extensive process involves several years of laboratory research, in which scientists and researchers identify an antigen that can prevent a disease. The AstraZenica vaccine was the first vaccine to be approved. The reason it was able to be done so quickly is documented in the link below. As you won't read it, here are the main points 1. A critical and general purpose component of the vaccine had already been developed following the Ebola outbreak in 2016 and in anticipation of a pandemic - ChAdOx1 - or Chimpanzee Adenovirus Oxford One. This is the delivery system to which the specific genetic fingerprint of any new virus would be attached. 2. There were no funding delays. The developers did not waste years looking for stage payments and writing funding papers for the next round of testing. 3. Vaccines have three trial phases. All three trial phases were done. The difference is that there were no delays between phases for funding and that because it was a pandemic there were enough people catching the disease to gather the sample size quickly. (Although not in this article, I believe some parts of the trials were also run in parallel.) The AZ vaccine is now the most tested vaccine in history. Oxford vaccine: How did they make it so quickly? - BBC News
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 418 by drlove, posted 01-12-2022 5:49 PM | | drlove has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 437 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 4:24 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 438 of 513 (891027)
01-13-2022 5:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 437 by drlove
01-13-2022 4:24 PM
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Re: Forcing My Hand Towards Science
drlove writes: Trust the drug companies for honest results? Oxford University is not a drug company. Can you provide any evidence at all - any - that the AZ COVID vaccine has not been properly tested. Any?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 437 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 4:24 PM | | drlove has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 439 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 7:14 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 444 of 513 (891037)
01-14-2022 2:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 439 by drlove
01-13-2022 7:14 PM
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Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
drlove writes: Not trusting them is 'not science'? I'll ask again as you seem to have missed my question. Oxford University is not a drug company. Can you provide any evidence at all - any - that the AZ COVID vaccine has not been properly tested. Any?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 439 by drlove, posted 01-13-2022 7:14 PM | | drlove has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 449 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 9:32 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 445 of 513 (891038)
01-14-2022 4:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 443 by drlove
01-14-2022 1:28 AM
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drlove writes: No more than Hitler had his house in order. It's always best to keep Hitler out of discussions that don't concern the him. Otherwise people will think that you're a boring and stupid troll. God forbid eh?
Below are a few of the doctors saying that lockdowns are the wrong way to go. Well I clicked on the only link you provided just to see what particular lie you're attempting to spread with this latest list you've copied from you Russian controller's collection of propaganda.
quote:
The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection. Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice. Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
I think that this is worthy of debate. Lockdowns are very balanced decisions and their usefulness now is less obvious than before vaccines. But to prevent the thread disappearing into a Gish Gallop of multiple unrelated assertions, why not open a thread to discuss it properly?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 443 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 1:28 AM | | drlove has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 453 of 513 (891066)
01-15-2022 4:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 449 by drlove
01-14-2022 9:32 PM
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Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
drlove writes: Can you show how the blind aspect of the test was done? To have a group monitored that was unvaccinated as compared to a vaccinated group, can you guarantee all that group never got vaccinated? If they or some of them did, then well, you know. Ok, you have no evidence at all that the AZ vaccine trials were not properly tested. And I've shown you why and how it was possible to do it in the time scales. So now that you fully understand, I'm sure you won't repeat that baseless claim again. So having failed there you instead want me to tell you how I know that the control group wasn't also vaccinated. You are more than a little paranoid aren't you? Anyway, offhand I can think of a few reasons. The first is that the scientific process prevents mistakes like that happening. And if somehow they happen anyway the process finds and fixes them. And, of course, we now have billions of people participating in the results of the trial which proves the efficacy of the original trials. So that's the end of that dumb-arse accusation. But also, had you given it any thought at all, you'd have worked out that because there were no vaccines available before their manufacture, people in the control group had no access to them. If you're accusing the scientists of being corrupt and vaccinating the control group too, the result would have shown that the vaccine was no better than no vaccine. And that any side effects would also appear in the control group. ie exactly the opposite of what you are alleging. Do'h.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 449 by drlove, posted 01-14-2022 9:32 PM | | drlove has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 459 of 513 (891076)
01-15-2022 5:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 457 by drlove
01-15-2022 2:52 PM
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Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
I read your links, do you read mine? Jane M Orient MD, is the author of that article posted on your favourite misinformation website. She is the Executive Director of this obnoxious organisation of right wing nutters like yourself
"The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association that promotes medical misinformation, such as HIV/AIDS denialism, the abortion-breast cancer hypothesis, vaccine and autism connections, and homosexuality reducing life expectancy. The association was founded in 1943 to oppose a government attempt to nationalize health care. The group has included notable members, including American Republican politicians Ron Paul, Rand Paul and Tom Price." Association of American Physicians and Surgeons - Wikipedia I'm afraid I'm not going to look any further into anything she says.
There was a 50:50 allocation in the preauthorization studies of the COVID vaccines. But the blinding has been broken, and those who received placebo are now eligible to receive active vaccine. Thus, there is virtually NO control group for potential late adverse consequences." As your quote points out, the trials were done correctly. The subsequent global roll out of the vaccines and the various yellow card systems have demonstrated both the effectiveness and the safety of the vaccines. I could post you dozens of these, but you're not interested in real information are you? Multiple population scale studies have made the early small-sample trial studies totally redundant. Sorry. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 457 by drlove, posted 01-15-2022 2:52 PM | | drlove has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 462 by drlove, posted 01-16-2022 3:33 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 464 of 513 (891082)
01-16-2022 4:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 462 by drlove
01-16-2022 3:33 AM
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Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
drlove writes: If there is no control group how is that being done correctly? All the trials had control groups. Your own article told you this. The vaccines have gone through all the regulatory, gold standard double-blind tests. Now that the vaccinations are in the arms of billions of people, the control groups are the unvaccinated. Globally there are hundreds of studies proving the vaccine's effectiveness and safety. Multiple post-authorisation studies have been completed and many more will follow. It's what science does.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 462 by drlove, posted 01-16-2022 3:33 AM | | drlove has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 467 by drlove, posted 01-17-2022 3:06 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 469 of 513 (891099)
01-17-2022 4:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 467 by drlove
01-17-2022 3:06 AM
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Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
drlove writes: There is also data showing the decreased effectiveness of vaccines, hence the boosters. Of course, all forms of immunity decline over time. The boosters have been used to protect further against the new wave of Omicron.
As for the article I posted it actually said there were no effective control group. The article you posted said this
quote:
There was a 50:50 (vaccinated and unvaccinated control) allocation in the preauthorization studies of the COVID vaccines.
So I repeat, all the vaccine trials used the gold standard double-blind trials and completed all stages prior to authorisation.
There are also a million adverse effects reported, and probably, by some estimates 20 times more than that. There are tens of thousands dead as a doornail, as a result of the vaccines, and probably again 20 times more than that. I'm not interested in your unsupported assertions. I've already explained to you the difference between the reporting system for deaths following vaccination and deaths subsequently attributed to vaccination. In the UK those deaths currently stand at 5. How many people have died as a result of a COVID-19 vaccine? | National Statistical
So what science do you have to offer saying that the (ingredients unknown) pseudo vaccines are safe in the long term? It's all the same science - the vaccines will be studied pretty much forever. But we've have a very large amount of information now that shows that the vaccines are both safe and effective. On the other part of the equation we know beyond doubt that COVID is not safe and does have severe long term consequences for those lucky enough to survive it. Here in the UK there have been 150,000 COVID deaths and 1.3 million suffering long COVID (2% of the population). Prevalence of ongoing symptoms following coronavirus (COVID-19) infection in the UK - Office for National Statistics
Ha How old are you?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 467 by drlove, posted 01-17-2022 3:06 AM | | drlove has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 474 of 513 (891284)
01-23-2022 3:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 472 by drlove
01-23-2022 2:24 PM
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Re: Foxes guarding henhouse
drlove writes: Don't make it sound like science says one thing. The agenda that includes trying to jab little children is not science. Those who try to offer it as such are not honest. WHO says healthy kids don't need booster shots for COVID-19 Does changing the subject when you can't answer the last points raised usually work for you?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 472 by drlove, posted 01-23-2022 2:24 PM | | drlove has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 475 by drlove, posted 01-24-2022 2:13 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 476 of 513 (891289)
01-24-2022 3:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 475 by drlove
01-24-2022 2:13 AM
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Re: Getting down to it
Changing the subject yet again eh? Don't think we don't notice.that you can't answer.
drlove writes: The issue of immunity is somewhat settled these days. CDC study affirms natural immunity superior to vaccines At least we can safely say that no opinion has a monopoly on science. Even though natural immunity seems to be far more valuable than they admitted. The difference between posting your garbage here and wherever else you go to spread your misinformation is that we will actual go to the original source that your nasty little website mis-uses and check. I suggest you do the same otherwise you look like someone who has no interest in telling the truth and we wouldn't want that would we? Anyhoo here's the report's summary and conclusion.
quote:
What is added by this report? During May–November 2021, case and hospitalization rates were highest among persons who were unvaccinated without a previous diagnosis. Before Delta became the predominant variant in June, case rates were higher among persons who survived a previous infection than persons who were vaccinated alone. By early October, persons who survived a previous infection had lower case rates than persons who were vaccinated alone.
What are the implications for public health practice? Although the epidemiology of COVID-19 might change as new variants emerge, vaccination remains the safest strategy for averting future SARS-CoV-2 infections, hospitalizations, long-term sequelae, and death. Primary vaccination, additional doses, and booster doses are recommended for all eligible persons. Additional future recommendations for vaccine doses might be warranted as the virus and immunity levels change.
COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations by COVID-19 Vaccination Status and Previous COVID-19 Diagnosis — California and New York, May–November 2021 | MMWR So then you dump evolution, creationism and climate change into the pot in the usual religious nutter's game of 'what about this' whack-a-mole. Sorry Chuck, seen it all before.
I kid you not. You certainly don't. I have a question for you. How old is the earth? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 475 by drlove, posted 01-24-2022 2:13 AM | | drlove has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 478 by drlove, posted 01-25-2022 2:49 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 480 of 513 (891319)
01-25-2022 4:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 478 by drlove
01-25-2022 2:49 AM
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Re: Getting down to it
drlove writes: If vaccination is the safest strategy explain this "Rate of infection more than twice as high for vaccinated people" Government data show 'vax-free' LESS likely to get COVID Sadly, your nasty little website has failed to reference the report that it alludes to - and, of course, you haven't bothered to look for it either. If you'd like to provide the reference I'll show you how your puppeteers are misleading you.
You mention climate change and the evolution of life on earth. Yes, that is also belief based, although you can feel free to demonstrate otherwise. YOU mentioned them.
Then you ask how old the earth is. Again that depends on what you believe. I asked you how old YOU thought the earth was. Care to answer?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 478 by drlove, posted 01-25-2022 2:49 AM | | drlove has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 506 of 513 (891368)
01-27-2022 3:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 495 by drlove
01-26-2022 6:44 PM
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Re: Any Redeeming Value?
drlove writes: The age of the earth is probably somewhere close to the one Usher calculated So that would be Sunday, 23rd October, 4004 BC. making it 6,026 years old this year. I've put the date in my diary and I'll send a card. Do you own guns? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 495 by drlove, posted 01-26-2022 6:44 PM | | drlove has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 507 by vimesey, posted 01-27-2022 3:34 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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