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Author Topic:   Could Trump Instigate A New Civil War?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15992
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1 of 90 (890962)
01-12-2022 5:17 PM


I am moving my discussion upon the possibility of a New Civil War here.

My discussion evolved from this article: Imagine Another Civil War But This Time In Every State
I would not be in favor of war simply because we are divided as a nation, but I could see issues that I feel strongly about causing an uproar.

quote:
Business Insider published a poll in October 2020 saying a majority of Americans believed the U.S. was already in the midst of a "cold" civil war. Then last fall, the University of Virginia Center for Politics released a poll finding that a majority of people who had voted to reelect former President Donald Trump in 2020 now wanted their state to secede from the Union.

The UVA data also showed a stunning 41% of those who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 also said it might now be "time to split the country."

Researchers have found such downbeat assessments of America's democracy are especially salient among the young. Last month, the Institute of Politics at Harvard's Kennedy School published a poll that found half of voting-age Americans under 30 thought our democracy was "in trouble" or "failing." A third also said they expected there to be "a civil war" within their lifetimes. And a quarter thought at least one state would secede.


Since I started this topic, another NPR post caught my eye. This one is more scary.

Pressed on his election lies, former President Trump cuts NPR interview short

If a New Civil War were to happen, Historians will undoubtedly place much of the cause on former president Trump.

NPR writes:

Some Republican leaders are trying to move on from former President Donald Trump's failed attempt to overturn the 2020 election that he lost.

"While there were some irregularities, there were none of the irregularities which would have risen to the point where they would have changed the vote outcome in a single state," Sen. Mike Rounds, R-S.D., said Sunday on ABC's This Week. "The election was fair, as fair as we have seen. We simply did not win the election, as Republicans, for the presidency. And if we simply look back and tell our people don't vote because there's cheating going on, then we're going to put ourselves at a huge disadvantage."

But Trump — who has endorsed dozens of candidates for the 2022 midterm elections and still holds by far the widest influence within the GOP — is trying hard not to let them move on.
(...)Trump's political organization has become a juggernaut. Not only are most Republican elected leaders falling in line, but he has also installed allies controlling many levers of political power across the country. In state after state, Trump allies are running local Republican parties, serving as state representatives, and in charge of political action committees.

It's a political army ready to be mobilized at his beck and call. What he says — what his message is to them — matters because they follow.
To secure his power, he will do whatever he can to cast aside those who don't show fealty. That includes threats, bullying, and intimidation, like badgering and name-calling.

Referring to South Dakota's Rounds in a statement after he appeared on ABC, for example, Trump said Rounds "just went woke," called him a "jerk," "weak," "ineffective" and questioned whether he was "crazy or just stupid."

He also called him a RINO, an acronym for an insult some conservatives reserve for more moderate Republicans they disagree with — Republicans in name only.

In the interview with NPR, he partially blamed Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell for Rounds and other senators feeling as though they can speak out and say — correctly — that Trump lost the election.

"Because Mitch McConnell is a loser," Trump said.

Trump has called McConnell worse — and all because the Kentucky Republican has crossed Trump, blaming him for the insurrection on Jan. 6 and saying President Biden won, even if McConnell doesn't do so forcefully every day.

It's par for the course for Trump, who has demanded unflinching loyalty — and who chafes at truths he disagrees with, especially about him losing.

I used to roll my eyes when people compared Trump to Hitler, but knowing what I do about Hitler and upon reading this article, I fear this man and his possible reelection. His megalomania and grip on power could not only plunge the United States into a new Civil War, but could bring our country down. For good! Comments?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 90 (890965)
01-12-2022 6:02 PM


Hitler was very popular for a long time and had support not just from within Germany but even in the US. Henry Ford and Lindberg and Joseph Kennedy and Lady Astor and Father Charles Coughlin as well as US companies like Ford and General Motors and Dow Chemical and Coca-Cola and Kodak and IBM all worked with and profited from the Nazi Regime.

Mussolini was popular both at home and abroad with vast support from the major European and US companies and Governments.

It's unlikely that there would be a US Civil War again BUT the likelihood of a Fascist Autocratic Government or a Military Coup are far, far higher. The question is rather will the transition to the Autocratic Fascist State be a relatively peaceful transition as happened in Japan, Italy and Germany rather than the Civil War scenario as in Spain?

And if as is most likely the transition to the Autocratic Fascist State is peaceful will the Military stand by and simply accept the status change from Democracy to Autocracy as happened in Germany, and Italy. In Japan it was the Military that instigated and created the transition to the Fascist Autocratic State by foreign intervention but again the transition was relatively peaceful with only a few key players being assassinated. Such Foreign intervention does not seem likely in the current US situation, so Germany and Italy are more likely scenarios.


My Website: My Website

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15992
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 3 of 90 (890966)
01-12-2022 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
01-12-2022 6:02 PM


What advantages would a modern fascist state have?
If we were to play devils advocate in this argument, what possible advantages would a fascist state have over the arsenal of democracy that won world war II? How would such a state get along with China, the next big dog? What rights that the people now enjoy likely get changed or eliminated?

What would the people expect out of such a state versus what such a totalitarian regime actually deliver?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 4 of 90 (890971)
01-12-2022 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
01-12-2022 8:13 PM


Re: What advantages would a modern fascist state have?
Well, after you'd asked Jewish people their views on the advantages and disadvantages of the Nazi regime in the 1930s and 1940s, I think the discussion would pretty much be closed down Phat.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15992
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 5 of 90 (890978)
01-13-2022 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-12-2022 5:17 PM


Are States Rights A Smokescreen?
In the original Civil War, Theodoric brought up a well-supported argument suggesting that the clamor for states' rights was a smokescreen to support slavery.

In a new Civil War, I could see states that wanted to succeed from the Union because of issues like higher taxation for a variety of national interests.

I have brought up the issue of reparations before, claiming essentially that while I might pay off my grandfather's debts I would be loathed to pay for all of the guilty grandfathers that were slaveowners.

This is but one issue that would possibly surface should a Civil War be proposed.

Trump is in fact an instigator of the highest order and could be all the fuel that would be needed to start a new Civil War.

Not that the liberal agenda represents the future vision for all of us.

They want to essentially lock our private earnings in with a national agenda.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 6 of 90 (890980)
01-13-2022 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
01-12-2022 8:13 PM


Re: What advantages would a modern fascist state have?
what possible advantages would a fascist state have over the arsenal of democracy

The trains to the death camps would run on time.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 01-12-2022 8:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 7 of 90 (890981)
01-13-2022 7:24 AM


Lots of great advantages.
An autocratic command economy has many advantages for business. Troublesome things like fair labor practices or unions or worker safety laws or environmental laws can simply be forgotten when convenient. There would be no messy things like demonstrations or strikes or slowdowns.

Elections would be far less disruptive and things like January 6th. would simply not be allowed.

There is absolutely no reason Trump would or needs to instigate a civil war. Again, look at the history of Germany, Italy the USSR or Japan.

Nazi Germany was the world leader in implementing the 40-hour work week, guaranteed retirement and pension, annual paid vacations with government created and supported vacation locations. Germany was a world leader in youth education and entitlement.

There would be no reparations and lots of new jobs and lower fuel prices and for those who were party members a great life and future.

The US under a Trump Dictatorship would be Nazi Germany in the late 1920s and 1930s, prosperous, peaceful, full of hope.

The only possible issue is that il Donaldo has NEVER been a success at running anything but not to worry, he has never suffered from the inevitable collapse.

Edited by jar, : hit wrong key, stopped too soon

Edited by jar, : if ---> is


My Website: My Website

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 8 of 90 (890983)
01-13-2022 8:48 AM


The whole idea of some civil war is simply sophomoric.
First the legal means to change from our current messy democratic republic to an autocratic fascist state are already in place or being put in place.

The tool is simply the Constitutionally Created Electoral College.

From Article2 US Constitution.

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President.

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

The individual States can decide who is a member of their Electoral College Delegation and there is no requirement that the popular vote even be considered.

Currently the effort in many States is to curtail the popular vote and to design districts to maintain control of voting.

If successful, the two-prong assault of limiting the popular vote and control of the Electoral Delegation means that in 2024 the outcome of the Presidential Election will be determined by the will of the individual State Legislatures rather than the votes.

But wait, there's more.

The same States that are involved above are also modifying both who gets to vote and who gets to count the votes.

So far it is all legal and Constitutional and so the most likely outcome would be a Legal, Constitutional coup.

The question then is if it does meet the Constitutional challenge, will the Military that has sworn to uphold the US Constitution oppose the coup?

If the US Military decides to take-sides then no civilian group has the capability to oppose them. If the Military decides to not intervene then the US will simply become and autocratic fascist State.

And business will simply prosper.


My Website: My Website

  
Theodoric
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Posts: 7333
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 9 of 90 (890986)
01-13-2022 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-13-2022 2:36 AM


Re: Are States Rights A Smokescreen?
How did you go from potential to civil war to rail against reparations?

They want to essentially lock our private earnings in with a national agenda.

WTF?
Who are the mysterious 'they"? What does this statement even mean?
Sounds like you are just trying to find a way to pigeonhole RWNJ(Right Wing Nut Job) talking points into a topic.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-13-2022 2:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 01-13-2022 9:51 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15992
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 10 of 90 (890988)
01-13-2022 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
01-13-2022 6:51 AM


Re: What advantages would a modern fascist state have?
Wait a minute! Does a Fascist State inevitably necessitate scapegoats? Just because Nazi Germany was anti-Jewish does not necessarily mean that the US would also be....right?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 01-13-2022 6:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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 Message 13 by nwr, posted 01-13-2022 10:32 AM Phat has seen this message
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15992
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 11 of 90 (890989)
01-13-2022 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Theodoric
01-13-2022 9:24 AM


Re: Are States Rights A Smokescreen?
It has been suggested that a new digital currency like FedCoin would be easily traceable and taxable.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 01-13-2022 9:24 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 01-13-2022 10:18 AM Phat has seen this message
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 12 of 90 (890990)
01-13-2022 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
01-13-2022 9:51 AM


Re: Are States Rights A Smokescreen?
quote:
It has been suggested that a new digital currency like FedCoin would be easily traceable and taxable.

So who is suggesting a Federal digital currency? And how serious is it as a proposal? (As in how likely is it to happen in the next few years?) And how does that tie into your assertion?

They want to essentially lock our private earnings in with a national agenda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 01-13-2022 9:51 AM Phat has seen this message

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6006
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(4)
Message 13 of 90 (890991)
01-13-2022 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
01-13-2022 9:49 AM


Re: What advantages would a modern fascist state have?
Does a Fascist State inevitably necessitate scapegoats?

What does that have to do with anything.

Let's examine the situation.

(1) You claim to be a Christian. Yet, much like Judas Iscariot, you never miss an opportunity to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

(2) You reject the idea of paying your moral debt in a possible reparation.

(3) You seem to be making excuses for fascism, as if that would be desirable.

Sorry to break the bad news. If the USA becomes a fascist state, then business will continue (as jar says). One of the first things that will happen, is that the fascist state will take away your social security and medicare benefits, and give that to the very rich. This will cost you far more than any saving from not paying reparations.

In simple terms, you are being an idiot.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6737
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 14 of 90 (890992)
01-13-2022 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
01-13-2022 9:49 AM


Re: What advantages would a modern fascist state have?
Phat, please, these are the modern nazis we're talking about. Their victims have already been identified. You should know this. Blacks, hispanics, foreigners, liberals, college professors, anybody named Fauci. The list goes on. There doesn't seem to be much limit to the nazi's list of hatreds. Plenty of fodder for the camps.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(4)
Message 15 of 90 (890994)
01-13-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
01-13-2022 9:49 AM


Re: What advantages would a modern fascist state have?
Phat??????????????????????????

Learn the basics.

The US was anti-Jewish. All of the names I mentioned in Message 2 were antisemites.

Antisemitism is still prevalent and nearly ubiquitous in the US.


My Website: My Website

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