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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 122 of 513 (885707)
04-23-2021 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
04-22-2021 10:15 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Phat writes:
If your rules were accepted as valid, NOBODY could be a believer.
They're not "my" rules. They're THE rules - and YOU follow them in every instance but one.
If everybody FOLLOWED the rules in every instance, nobody would be a believer - and that would be a good thing.
Phat writes:
What puzzles me is why you reject the research and arguments of the apologists...
Again, for the same reasons YOU reject the research and arguments of the Santa-believers.
Phat writes:
... and accept the mythicists and other secular sholars with an axe to grind against the Jesus.
I have never read a single word by any "mythicist" so you can stop using that tired old PRATT.
Phat writes:
And you cant show why *we* only imagine God and never actually experienced an encounter with Him.
And AGAIN you say nothing to actually back up your position. SHOW us the difference between your god and all the other gods.
Phat writes:
If so, how is it that you once were a believer...if in fact you only ha empty beliefs to work with?
Duh. I recognized that the beliefs were empty, so I dropped them.
Phat writes:
If all evidence were objective, all people would have no choice but to question and doubt their beliefs.
Nonsense. People ignore the evidence or reject the evidence. That doesn't make the evidence subjective. It makes the people fools.
Phat writes:
And as I have tried to convince you time and time agin, all "Gods(gods) are NOT equal.
Nope. All you ever do is repeat that opinion. You never make the slightest effort to back it up.
Phat writes:
If we had numerous believers in Big Foot and the Spaghetti Monster running around behaving like Biblical Christians...
Argument from popularity. Invalid. PRATT.
Phat writes:
I invoke the appeal to popularity
Which is a fallacy.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 10:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 04-23-2021 2:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 513 (885714)
04-23-2021 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
04-23-2021 2:51 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Phat writes:
You cant simply expect me to critically evaluate the object of my faith/character of my belief as if He were just another Harry Potter character.
Sure I can. A lot of us here have done that.
Phat writes:
So explain to me why it would be a good thing if we had a world where nobody believed in any Gods/Sources
You should think about that and answer it for yourself.
By the way, Gods are not Sources. The human mind is the source of all gods.
Phat writes:
You cant lump my one stand...my one belief which I stand on...and throw it in a pile with Santa believers and flat earth believers and Harry Potter believers.
Yes I can. I've done it several times in this thread already. Why can't you give any coherent response?
Phat writes:
Showing you the difference will likely involve a lifetime.
Then you'd better start now when we've still got a little lifetime left.
Phat writes:
The Spirit only moves in people.
Copout.
Phat writes:
But we have yet to prove that all apologists are dishonest
We have a perfect score so far. Feel free to roll out the next victim.
Phat writes:
But I will also assert that some of us were more patient than you were and found substance in beliefs where you hastily found only emptiness.
It has nothing to do with patience. Empty is empty; it doesn't take long to figure that out. What can take a long time is accepting what you know deep down is true.
And I was not hasty. I've been thinking about this a lot longer than you have.
Phat writes:
Play devils advocate a moment. Can it even be backed up?
If you can't back it up, that should be a strong indication that it isn't true.
Phat writes:
How can you make an argument defending one God over other Gods?
How can you make an argument defending Fred Flintstone over Homer Simpson? How would that argument be anything but empty?
Phat writes:
... only one of them has an army of followers, evidence of changed lives, and many homeless getting fed, much spare change flowing, and positive creativity in general.
False. Stupidly false.
ALL Gods have followers. Some of them have many more followers than yours.
Phat writes:
The assertion that Big Foot=Jesus is itself a PRATT.
How so? It has never been refuted. 0<1000.
Phat writes:
If it is a fallacy for Biblical Christians it is a fallacy for non believers.
Of course.
And I'll remind you again that you are not a "Biblical Christian" since you reject the Bible as a "dusty old book".
Phat writes:
You dont get to claim that you all live in reality while we all live in fantasy...
It's not a "claim". It's supported by evidence. "We" can all agree on what reality is, whether we're atheists or Christians or Jews or Muslims or whatever. You believers can't even agree on what your fantasy is like.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 04-23-2021 2:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 12:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 513 (885725)
04-24-2021 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
04-24-2021 12:03 PM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Gods are not Sources. The human mind is the source of all gods.
Speculation.
Nope. Conclusion based on evidence. Even you understand that the OTHER gods are made up in human minds.
Phat writes:
You want this to be true yet you simply cannot prove it.
As I've told you many times, I do NOT just want it to be true. It would be a comfort to me if there was a real god watching over me - but there isn't.
And I DO have evidence that gods are made up in human minds. See above.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 12:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 429 of 513 (891003)
01-13-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by drlove
01-12-2022 10:17 PM


Re: making it up as they go along
drlove writes:
So now you believe that you can dismiss usual test times.
Yup.
It's not a rule. "Usual" does not mean "required".
For example, it usually takes a couple of hours to solve the New York Times crossword puzzle. If somebody does it in less time, is that a bad thing? Is the solution invalid because it was done "too fast"?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by drlove, posted 01-12-2022 10:17 PM drlove has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(4)
Message 430 of 513 (891004)
01-13-2022 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
01-06-2022 7:40 AM


Re: Peanut Gallery dogpiles Phat
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
There are thousands of gods. Your apologist's claims do nothing to support one over the others.
Thousands, eh? I may reject the book, but you reject Jesus...the central character.
What does that have to do with what you quoted?
And no, I do not reject Jesus any more than I reject Long John Silver or Holden Caulfield. I accept Jesus' message and YOU reject it.
Phat writes:
You claim a "get out of responsibility" card because you don't believe that Jesus is real or can help you.
Have you ever read anything I've posted? I do NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, try to get out of responsibility. I have no more responsibility to Jesus than I have to Long John Silver or Holden Caulfield - but I am responsible to my fellow man. I am my brother's keeper. YOU are the one who tries to get out of that responsibility by claiming that Jesus whispered in your ear that the dusty old book is wrong.
Phat writes:
For all of you here at EvC who trust humans to be our collective higher power, I can only say that you WILL be disappointed.
And yet YOU are the one who is ALREADY disappointed - you readily admit that your made-up Jesus doesn't do anything concrete.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
you can't show any difference between your made-up god and any other made-up god.
As long as you call ALL of them made-up, I can't convince you of anything.
On the contrary, as I have told you many times, if you could show any difference between your made-up god and any other made-up god I would gladly accept that your made-up god is different. You just can't convince me of something that is false.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
The human mind is the source of all gods.
You do believe in the Dusty Old Book, so allow me to quote that.
No, I do not "believe in" the Book. I believe in one particular message IN the Book. Why is it so hard for you to understand the most basic concepts?
I believe in the message of "love thy neighbor" because it works in reality, not because it's in the Book.
And your quote from Acts doesn't disagree with what I said.
Phat writes:
It's amazing how not much has changed. These days people still worship things made by men.
As I said.
Your quote from Acts might carry some weight if you didn't reject what the Book says about Jesus and make up your own self-serving Jesus. But the book of Acts is talking about YOU.
Phat writes:
God will not overlook such ignorance veiled behind education and "evidence".
Which God is that? The many versions of God in the Book? Or your made-up version?
Phat writes:
The evidence is found in your Dusty Old Book.
The Book that you reject.
Seriously, how many feet can you get into your mouth at one time?
Phat writes:
You escape responsibility for placing yourself under God's authority because you are not a believer.
Liar. See above.
Phat writes:
You then turn around, hold me to giving everything....
Stop it. I don't hold you to anything. I just wonder why you reject the only evidence we have for Jesus, the Bible.
Phat writes:
... essentially *worship* human potential and creativity as the sole hope for mankind....
It is our only hope. Do you understanhd the difference between hope and wishful thinking? You wish Jesus would do it all for you but deep down you know He won't. He told you the same thing that I'm telling you: You have to do it yourself.
You're responsible for your own "salvation". You gotta build your own ark because God ain't gonna do it for you. You gotta feed the hungry because Jesus ain't gonna do it for you. You ARE your own only hope.
Phat writes:
... and scold me for ignoring a dusty old book which you yourselves believe was entirely human-inspired and compiled.
Yes, it is human-inspired. The only things it gets right are what humans get right.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 01-06-2022 7:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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