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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2

Message 511 of 513 (891379)
01-27-2022 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by Theodoric
01-27-2022 11:46 AM

Re: Sorry for feeding the troll
Not a doctor, just can't spell drove.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Theodoric, posted 01-27-2022 11:46 AM Theodoric has taken no action

Posts: 20761
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2

Message 512 of 513 (891380)
01-27-2022 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by drlove
01-26-2022 6:36 PM

Re: wowsa
Your message is disorganized, but rather than impose my own order on it I'll just respond to things in the same order you say them.

drlove writes:

This is absurd on its face. It simply isn't possible for the vaccines to cause infections, hospitalizations and deaths. This would only be possible if the vaccines were made with dead or deactivated virus, but they're not.

Raw statement with no support.

It has plenty of scientific support. In fact, it's fundamental to the way vaccines work, which I assumed was common knowledge, but apparently not for you. You're so resistant to knowledge that I won't waste my time providing the details of how traditional vaccines work. If you ever feel inclined to learn about it you can look it up in Wikipedia or any of the many medical websites.

The long term effects are not known.

But this is the opposite of what you claimed, in two ways. You made no claims about the long term effects of vaccines. You claimed vaccines are putting people in hospitals and killing them in the near term, shortly after they're taken.

You also didn't claim the effects are unknown. You claimed they caused people to become ill with covid-19, that more people catch covid-19 if they're vaccinated than if they're unvaccinated.

But If you learn about mRNA vaccines then you'll understand how the vaccines couldn't possibly cause covid-19. I explained this already. If you don't accept my explanation then discuss it with me, but don't pretend this hasn't already been explained.

If you can't support what you say, to such a large degree that you have to claim you said something else, could I suggest not saying it in the first place?

The actual causes of all the deaths since the vaccines started is not known.

We do know the cause of almost all covid-19 related deaths. There is no large collection of mysterious deaths out there.

Most are listed as something else or unrelated.

Yes, something else, but no, not unrelated. I explained this earlier. Almost everyone who dies due to a covid-19 infection dies of something else, the most common being pneumonia.

If a vaccine (regardless of what it was made from) triggered some things that made people sick or killed them, then it is possible they cause hospitalization etc.

There's the occasional allergic reaction and a small collection of fairly rare other kinds of reactions, but extremely few people are made sick by vaccines. If many people were becoming sick from the vaccines it would be readily apparent in urgent care facilities and emergency rooms all across the country as people show up there with mysterious illnesses within a few days of getting the vaccine.

Dr Malone and many others have ridiculous years of science with them and under their belt. So we have the situation where science is not one one side of the argument here in any way.

Dr. Malone seems to have lost his way and been promoting "misinformation about the safety and efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Malone). WND seems to be active in promoting his quackery. If you think Dr. Malone has any science-based claims you're welcome to describe them for us here.

Those who pretend it is are guilty of helping foster the loss of freedom and quality of life from the covid tyranny.

This is the writing style of a polemicist.

The issue is not 'my' science.

Not sure why you referred to "'my' science." You don't seem to know any science.

The issue is anybody's science.

There aren't multiple scientific perspectives on the virus and the vaccines.

Both sides claim science.

Well, yes, those who actually know and understand science believe that it is the best way of understanding the world around us, while the conspiracy theorists at WND and InfoWars make up false claims and lie that they are backed by science.

Obviously both cannot be right.

The conspiracy theorists are self-evidently wrong. Their skills lie in the areas of lying, misrepresentation and persuasion, not just about science but of everything (e.g., January 6th was a false flag operation perpetrated by the FBI). Those who understand science and have good bullshit detectors are not easily taken in by the liars at WND and InfoWars.

Would you not expect real science to be clear?

Science *is* clear, but you're not looking at science. You're looking at WND and InfoWars. Like I said, they really have your number. Because you don't understand science, misinformation goes right from their webpages into your brain, rotting it out from the inside.

On every aspect of the tyranny and agenda associated with covid polar opposite opinions from men of science. Why believe them?

The better question, especially because you're not making sense and cannot back up anything you say, is why believe you?

Right-wing media has built an entire industry fabricating misinformation

That is ignorant. Have you science to back up your bald claim?

I've been doing that right along. Just in my previous message I provided this image from Alex Berenson's report that he took from COVID-19 Alberta statistics:

He thought that this shows that vaccination causes many hospitalizations a short while later, in some cases the same day. But what the graph instead shows is the effectiveness of vaccines and how after about two weeks they initiate a significant decline in the possibility of hospitalization.

I'm still concerned that you dropped your argument about mask ineffectiveness. We're all still hanging on the edge of our seats hoping you provide the studies that show they're ineffective so that we can all stop wearing them.

We're also hoping you provide the studies that show the vaccines dangerous so we can stop taking them, too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by drlove, posted 01-26-2022 6:36 PM drlove has taken no action

Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009

Message 513 of 513 (891381)
01-27-2022 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by drlove
01-26-2022 6:36 PM

Re: wowsa
drlove writes:

The long term effects are not known. The actual causes of all the deaths since the vaccines started is not known. Most are listed as something else or unrelated. If a vaccine (regardless of what it was made from) triggered some things that made people sick or killed them, then it is possible they cause hospitalization etc.

Are you aware that SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus? It has an RNA genome wrapped in a fatty membrane covered in proteins that stick to your cells. Once attached, the virus injects its RNA genome into your cells where the RNA is made into proteins. The RNA genome is about 30,000 bases long, and it produces proteins that copy RNA into new RNA geneoms and proteins that coat the new viral particle when it detaches from the infected cell. The S gene is just one gene among many in the viral RNA genome, and it is one of the proteins that is on the outside of the viral particle. It is responsible for sticking to your cells and starting the infection.

During infection, your cells are making new viral RNA for days to weeks. Tons of it. It is also producing viral particles coated with the spike protein which your immune system recognizes and tries to attack, producing antibodies in the process.

The vaccine is just the RNA S gene. It only produces the spike protein. It has no ability to make new viral RNA genomes, nor does it have the ability produce any other protein such as the RNA dependent RNA polymerase that is used to copy RNA into new RNA. The RNA from the vaccine is only in your cells for a day or so, and probably shorter than that because it breaks down quickly. The vaccine can not produce infections with the full viral genome because the full viral genome is never present. The vaccine is entirely incapable of causing an infection. Period.

So please tell us why the vaccine is so much worse than the infection. Why is a relatively small amount of RNA for the S gene so much more dangerous than tons of RNA for the entire viral genome that you are exposed to for days to weeks longer than the RNA from the vaccine? If the vaccine is causing any deleterious reactions the virus will be much worse just by their very nature.

Would you not expect real science to be clear?

It is clear as day. Study after study has shown that the unvaccinated are being hospitalized at 5 to 10x the rate as the vaccinated. The basic biology and immunology supports taking the vaccine. You have to deny decades of scientific research to think otherwise.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by drlove, posted 01-26-2022 6:36 PM drlove has taken no action

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