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Author | Topic: Is the “Fine-Tuned Universe” an Illusion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
I think this is probably best as a Coffee House topic because the article I reference seems more lunatic fringe than scientific. I saw it on SciTechDaily this morning and rather than the usual article about a study that is published in some scientific journal, it is more like publicity for their own report.
quote: Is the “Fine-Tuned Universe” an Illusion? Challenging Popular Arguments for a Multiverse by The Foundational Questions Institute, FQXi, February 8, 2022.
quote: So not just fine tuned for life, but fine tuned for intelligent life! By the way, the new report link takes you to a brief 2 page "report" on the Templeton website which has no detailed recent studies.
quote: quote: Almost the entire Universe is extreme vacuum filled with lethal extreme electromagnetic radiation. That does not seem like physical conditions tailored towards human existence. I would bet that all the minds in physics, not just the sharpest, are aware of the fine tuning question. I would also bet that the sharpest minds in physics do not spend any time or effort trying to figure out how to test this latest Creationist Pretend to be Scientific Gambit. The article goes on a bit further but it's just more bullshit.
quote: Templeton put money into the Discovery Institute, didn't he?
Hey if these clowns at FQXi can get a grant from Templeton, we should cash in. FQXi is as empty as MrIDWhat if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq |
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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I would call the fine tuning problem an #N/A instead of an illusion. If anyone has dealt with spreadsheets or data analysis, you will be all too familiar with the dreaded #N/A that appears when you fail to have the required inputs for the function. This is the case here. We simply don't have knowledge of how universes come about, how physical constants come about, or how many universes there are. We don't have the inputs for a probability calculation, which is why it should return an #N/A.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
Yep, #N/A is the only response to this question, because it is an appeal to incredulity, ignoring the lack of any way to calculate probabilities.
I don't expect great scientific scholarship at SciTechDaily, but their promotion of this pseudoscientific scam article is disappointing and makes me wonder if they have a vetting process.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Reminds me of the AWK error message "AWK bailing out near line 1" regardless of where in the 1000 lines of code the problem actually exists.
My Website: My Website |
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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What's with the templeton's and this fine tuning crowd?
Anything fine tuned for x cannot help but make lots and lots of x. And fine tuning implies plan and agency. When we look into the universe we do not see billions upon billions of intelligent civilizations. In fact we see precisely 0 intelligent civilizations. That's an awfully fucked-up job of even gross tuning if intelligent life was the goal. What we are seeing are trillions upon trillions of stars. Stars in every conceivable configuration. This universe is fine tuned to create stars, not life, but stars. It does so because Amun-Ra is our god and he chose the parameters. He made us so we could make telescopes to peer into his wonderous creation. You might even say this universe is fine tuned to create telescopes. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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You might even say this universe is fine tuned to create telescopes.
Looking around, I'm more inclined to think it is fine tuned to create idiots.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9
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You might even say this universe is fine tuned to create telescopes.
Looking around, I'm more inclined to think it is fine tuned to create idiots. I'm just really pleased that we don't have to let the idiots look through our telescopes.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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nwr writes:
There must be an evolutionary advantage to idiocy. Looking around, I'm more inclined to think it is fine tuned to create idiots."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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I recall it being a Douglas Adams quote that puts the entire "fine tuning" argument into proper perspective; from The Puddle's Pothole | Raving Atheists Wiki | Fandom:
[quote]The Puddle's Pothole
The Puddle's Pothole is an illustration of the failings of the Fine-Tuning Argument. The counter-argument was told by Douglas Adams to Richard Dawkins, and reported by Dawkins at Adams's funeral on 17 September 2001. The anecdote describes a puddle of water that "wak[es] up one morning and think[s], 'This is an interesting world I find myself in – an interesting hole I find myself in – fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'" In the illustration, the puddle assumes that the pothole it resides in was designed specifically for it based on the fact that the dimensions of the pothole match exactly the dimensions of the puddle. This is meant to highlight the flaws in the concept that the universe (specifically the Earth) was specifically designed for our kind of life (human life in particular) based on the fact that the conditions of the universe match exactly the conditions necessary for our kind of life. Adams's analogy demonstrates that the Fine-Tuning Argument is the result of an interverted conception of the universe. In the same way that, in actuality, it is the molecules of water in the puddle that conform to the dimensions of the pothole, it is our kind of life that conforms to the parameters of the universe.[/quote] IOW, it is not the universe that is fine-tuned, but rather life that is fine-tuned (mainly through evolution once life has gotten started through other natural processes) to fit in the universe. If the universe had been even slightly different enough to preclude life as we know it but rather would allow some other form of life, then that's the form of life that one would find in that universe.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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dwise1 writes: IOW, it is not the universe that is fine-tuned, but rather life that is fine-tuned (mainly through evolution once life has gotten started through other natural processes) to fit in the universe. The Puddle explanation doesn't really address the basic argument. The fine tuning argument deals more with fundamental constants and starting conditions that allowed for stars, galaxies, planets, and complex chemistry to exist. If we were addressing an argument over how the Earth was designed for life, then the puddle analogy would be spot on.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8
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Though the entire fine-tuning argument is still moot. If the universe had not formed with those fundamental constants and starting conditions that allowed for stars, galaxies, planets, and complex chemistry to exist, then nobody would be posing any questions about it.
--------------------------------- My standard reaction to philosophizing: "Dammit, Jim! I'm an engineer, not a philosopher!"
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Or at least WE would not be posing any questions about it.
My Website: My Website
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
"Dammit, Jim! I'm an engineer, not a philosopher!" It would have been funnier if Spock had said it!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
Yeah, but then I am an engineer, so that's what I need to go with.
Either something works or it doesn't. If it doesn't work, then try to figure out how to get it to work. That cannot be done by redefining words in order to change reality. That is how theologians, philosophers, and lawyers roll, but not engineers.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4344 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.9 |
That cannot be done by redefining words in order to change reality. That is how theologians, philosophers, and lawyers roll, but not engineers. Yep, nothing actually runs on BULLSHIT.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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