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Author Topic:   Is the “Fine-Tuned Universe” an Illusion?
PaulK
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Posts: 17171
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 16 of 61 (891784)
02-11-2022 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tanypteryx
02-10-2022 10:00 PM


Re: Fine Tuned
quote:
Yep, nothing actually runs on BULLSHIT.

Aside from things like religious apologetics, the “Sovereign Citizen” movement and assorted cranks (like Michael MD).


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Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.0


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Message 17 of 61 (891796)
02-11-2022 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tanypteryx
02-10-2022 10:00 PM


Re: Fine Tuned
Tanypteryx writes:

Yep, nothing actually runs on BULLSHIT.

That's not entirely true.

quote:
The Mesquite Lake Resource Recovery Project is the world's first cattle manure-fired, commercial scale power plant. The plant has been in commercial operation since late 1987 and Southern California Edison (SCE), the utility that buys our power, formally acknowledged achievement of Firm Capacity October 20, 1988.
A cow manure fueled power plant (Journal Article) | OSTI.GOV

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-10-2022 10:00 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3348
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 18 of 61 (891797)
02-11-2022 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
02-11-2022 5:21 PM


Re: Fine Tuned
Yeah, there is a monster dairy farm up on the Columbia Plateau somewhere east of The Dalles that powers their whole operation with the methane from their manure. They are milking 50,000-100,000 cows twice each 24 hour period. Reducing methane to carbon dioxide reduces the greenhouse footprint a little bit.

But the other kind of bullshit, the verbal kind, seems to rot whatever someone is trying to power with it. My dad called the people who spread BULLSHIT, Bull Peddlers, the lowest of the low.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 19 of 61 (891798)
02-11-2022 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taq
02-11-2022 5:21 PM


Bullshit Objection
Tanypteryx writes:

Yep, nothing actually runs on BULLSHIT.


Taq writes:

That's not entirely true.

Objection, Your Honor!

Cattle manure, though it may contain bullshit, cannot replace the feces analogies used in discussion. Actual bullshit, without fecal contributions from cow, steer, ox or bullock, is, or should be in intellectual discussions, the only acceptable form of excrement to be slung at shitheads and their shithead ideas.

This is not to denigrate female and youth contributions of bovine excrement to other aspects of culture. But there is an emotional element to the power of a full-grown massive overpowering true bred bull with fierce overpowering droppings that connotes a more significant rejection of the items, persons, ideas in question than a mere combined cattle crap can.

I object to your characterization of a cattle manure-fired power plant as being run on bullshit. At this point I must hold Tany's statement to still be true.

Edited by AZPaul3, : title


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Son Goku
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Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(1)
Message 20 of 61 (891819)
02-12-2022 1:25 PM


Fine-Tuned
I wouldn't say it was N/A, it is possible to compute in certain models. In most Cosmological models it is actually true that our universe is "fine-tuned", as far as I understand the term. Only a vanishing amount of the parameter space for the Standard Model and also for theories of Quantum Gravity allow any complex structures to arise. And this is under any reasonable probability distribution.

Added to that if the world ran on any of the probability theories more general than quantum theory it would be impossible to learn/orient oneself or react coherently to the world and it would be intrinsically impossible to have life, although this is subtler than the point above.

I don't know what to make of it, it's a well known cosmology problem called the "naturalness" problem.


Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2022 3:25 PM Son Goku has replied
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2022 4:09 PM Son Goku has replied
 Message 26 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-12-2022 5:59 PM Son Goku has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 21 of 61 (891822)
02-12-2022 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son Goku
02-12-2022 1:25 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
Only a vanishing amount of the parameter space for the Standard Model and also for theories of Quantum Gravity allow any complex structures to arise.

So in an infinite universe there would only be a infinite number of such worlds.

I guess it's ok to say this universe is finely tuned for our standard model or something close.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Son Goku, posted 02-12-2022 1:25 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Son Goku, posted 02-12-2022 3:47 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 22 of 61 (891827)
02-12-2022 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by AZPaul3
02-12-2022 3:25 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
The universe isn't infinite, so there wouldn't be an infinite amount of Earth-like planets. How special Earth is within our universe is hard to say, we need more data on extrasolar planets, but according to current physics the universe we have is extremely special within the space of possible universes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2022 3:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2022 5:19 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 8551
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 23 of 61 (891828)
02-12-2022 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son Goku
02-12-2022 1:25 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
Son Goku writes:

I don't know what to make of it, it's a well known cosmology problem called the "naturalness" problem.

It's great to hear this stuff from someone who isn't stark staring bonkers.

As a simple ignorant in all this, it seems obvious to me that, just like my car, the universe won't work unless everything is spot on. So how did it get that way? Hence all the fuss about watches and so on.

At this point people have injected the causeless cause and called it god, made up their own version and got on their knees. Job done, no need to go any further.

I think my ignorance and yours are essentially equal. I have never understood why we expect to understand this. What you understand is beyond my comprehension but your understanding is probably only a centimetre ahead of mine compared to the light years it seems we have yet to go.

I was going to say something profound at this point, but for the moment it escapes me. I'll have to make do with 'shit happened'.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Son Goku, posted 02-12-2022 1:25 PM Son Goku has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 24 of 61 (891829)
02-12-2022 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Son Goku
02-12-2022 3:47 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
You're not a many worlds fan?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Son Goku, posted 02-12-2022 3:47 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Son Goku, posted 02-12-2022 6:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(2)
Message 25 of 61 (891831)
02-12-2022 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tangle
02-12-2022 4:09 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
Yeah like I definitely don't know. I mean ultimately QM already says whatever is going on isn't modellable fundamentally and we'll have to accept we're really only predicting the probabilities of future observations we choose to make rather than "the heart of things". Nima Arkani-Hamed is a physicist who has given some good heuristics that the Big Bang might be one of the "off-limits" unmodellable things according to QM.

Further evidence of the hand of Atum-Re and the eternal glory of Kemet


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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 3348
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 26 of 61 (891832)
02-12-2022 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Son Goku
02-12-2022 1:25 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
In most Cosmological models it is actually true that our universe is "fine-tuned", as far as I understand the term. Only a vanishing amount of the parameter space for the Standard Model and also for theories of Quantum Gravity allow any complex structures to arise. And this is under any reasonable probability distribution.

OK, I understand that and agree that it is reasonable to think of it that way. ABE: I'm a fanboy of all this and love to listen to people a lot smarter than me talk about the whole physics of the Universe, but most of it is beyond my ability to deeply understand.

It seems like that could also mean though, that only universes with that vanishing amount of parameter space can exist. We only have one example of a Universe, and we know it works in some specific ways, but we cannot measure or predict universes that have other parameters. I may be wrong but it seems like there have been several changes in the fundamental parameters of this universe at specific stages in the development and evolution.

I really love hearing, reading and thinking about all the different hypotheses of cosmology and astrophysics. If any of these explanations are accurate, there have to be ways of eventually finding supporting evidence, if Homo sapiens survives as a curious species long enough.

I don't know what to make of it, it's a well known cosmology problem called the "naturalness" problem.

Maybe it's as simple as, this is the only way a universe can exist for 14 billion years.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Son Goku, posted 02-12-2022 1:25 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Son Goku, posted 02-13-2022 9:02 AM Tanypteryx has taken no action

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(1)
Message 27 of 61 (891833)
02-12-2022 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by AZPaul3
02-12-2022 5:19 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
Like the Many-Worlds interpretation of QM?

Being honest I actually think it's completely silly and every physicist I've met who believed it was a cosmologist with serious gaps in their knowledge of QM. After over sixty years it still hasn't managed to achieve its most basic goal, i.e replicate the correct probabilities predicted by standard QM. I think it just comes from wanting to avoid certain implications of QM.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2022 5:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6739
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 28 of 61 (891836)
02-12-2022 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Son Goku
02-12-2022 6:01 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
Then, if I may ask, of the various interpretations from Copenhagen and her cousins thru the various many worlds interpretations, where do you prefer to resolve the measurement problem?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Son Goku, posted 02-12-2022 6:01 PM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Son Goku, posted 02-13-2022 9:03 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(2)
Message 29 of 61 (891839)
02-13-2022 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tanypteryx
02-12-2022 5:59 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
I may be wrong but it seems like there have been several changes in the fundamental parameters of this universe at specific stages in the development and evolution

So the parameters within our universe have changed over its life span, but the fine-tuning takes that into account. Both our parameters' values and their evolution are very fine-tuned.

It seems like that could also mean though, that only universes with that vanishing amount of parameter space can exist...
Maybe it's as simple as, this is the only way a universe can exist for 14 billion years.

Unfortunately most of the parameter space permits very long lived universes just like ours, so this idea won't work either. Not that it's a bad idea, it was one of the first things checked.

For peoples' interest one of the more interesting takes I've seen is that the different possible universes seen in the parameter space of quantum gravity theories might not actually be different possible universes but our own universe viewed from different perspectives (essentially as seen from different types of observers). However this idea is very underdeveloped and possibly completely wrong. If it was right these different subjective perspectives could not be logically combined, i.e. impossible to pass from these subjective perspectives to some kind of objective view.


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Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1208
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(1)
Message 30 of 61 (891840)
02-13-2022 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by AZPaul3
02-12-2022 6:51 PM


Re: Fine-Tuned
What do you mean by the "measurement problem"?

People can mean a few different things by it, so I just want to know which is intended here in order to answer accurately.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 02-12-2022 6:51 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2022 3:30 PM Son Goku has replied

  
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