The War in Europe

quote:

---

There was a Treaty of Tartu signed in 1920 between Finland and Russia.
There were uprisings in Karelia, which was a western region of Russia, since the 1700s. It had mostly ethnic Finns, as a population demographic.

​

Finland was invading Russia, during World War 1, expecting a victorious Germany to help them take Karelia

---

Finland was supporting locals attempting to break away from the Bolshevist regime - helping an oppressed minority. Indeed, there had already been votes to secede in parts of the region.

quote:

---

It did not work out and Red Russia offered the Treaty of Tartu, defining borders, and requiring Finland to agree to stop trying to take Karelia. 1920 ratification.

​

But Finland pulled a stunt. In Finland, the 1921-1922 Finnish-Soviet Uprisings are called the East Karelian Uprisings.

​

Finland allowed members of its military to cross the border to Russian sovereign territories in Karelia. Finland allowed anybody to cross and join rebels. Finland is recognized, by historically confirmed policy, to have sent "humanitarian aid" to help the war effort. The Finnish government.

---

So Finland helped the locals rebel against an oppressive regime.In 1933-35 the Soviet oppression in East Karelia increased, with local autonomy removed, Finnish leaders purged and the teaching of the Finnish language forbidden.

quote:

---

Then, in the 1930s, Nazi Germany & Russia fought - through proxies- endless civil wars, before the shocking treaty between Hitler & Stalin. But Finnish designs to invade Russia & establish a Greater Finland were alive & well, and Finns looked forward to the inevitable war between Germany and Russia. Finns were ready to use Germany to take East Karelia.

---

How does this show that the Russians had any interest in helping an oppressed minority rather than the continuation of their own oppression in Karelia? And how does this even justify the Russian demands against Finland followed by an invasion? And let us not forget the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - the Soviets had their own agreements with the Nazis.

quote:

---

So provide the context, PaulK.

---

Glad to! As you see it further demolishes your claim. But you knew that - that’s why you aren’t even trying to support it.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Does anybody doubt that?

---

Since the only evidence of that is your say-so, then everyone with any sense will conclude that this is just another of your stupid lies.

quote:

---

Honestly, AzPaul would love for the Tsars to be in power.

​

Who can deny that?

---

I can.It probably means that you wish the Tsars were still in power.

Your bullshit was irrelevant. Finland outlawed democratic Communist parties in 1930. Peaceful Communists were murdered.Even that is almost irrelevant.But historians admit Finland gave Russia concern by:In 1937, a Nazi German submarine flotilla was invited to Helsinki, with a heroic receptipn, when it arrived.In April 1938 the Finnish government celebrated the 20th anniversary of entry by German troops into World War 1 Helsinki.In May 1938 the rntry of Mannerheim's forces into Poland was celebrated.In June 1939, German army Chief of Staff, General Franze Halder was invited & warmly received by Helsinki. The General was brought to observe the Finnish army practice maneuvers at the Karelian Isthmus.* And Finland admitted the 1941 Continuation War was to take Russian territory, not to defend themselves. Russia attempted to avoid the previous 1939 war as well.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Your bullshit was irrelevant.

---

That’s rich from someone who attempted to claim that the Russian invasion was justified because a neo-Nazi wrestler came from Finland to the US in 1993.

quote:

---

Finland outlawed democratic Communist parties in 1930. Peaceful Communists were murdered

---

Missing some context there like the fact that those “democratic” communists had belonged to a party that tried to violently overthrow the Finnish government in 1919, leading to a civil war.The rest is even more unimportant - and far less relevant to the fact that it is the Soviets who were the imperialist and colonialists in this conflict.

Finland had lots of fascists, Nazi-supporters, the the context, to the 1939 Winter War, is something you will gladly dismiss.Finland was spending the first half of the 20th century trying to figure out a way to invade Russia.Stalin stopped it cold.And Hitler's genuine alliance with his friend Finland only backfired on fascists.Finland was NEUTRAL all during the Cold War, and the genuine neutrality enabled peace and prosperity.(Finland had a state-policy to always vote the Russian position at the UN, and the West knew it. Finland was never harassed or infiltrated with bellicose Western agents.)And the world OPPOSED DEMANDING Russian troops to leave Ukraine.For the sake of peace. The West never cease it war-mongering schemes. Russia is fighting for peace.Facsists like you speak with a forked tongue. I can decipher the language, however.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Your bullshit was irrelevant. Finland outlawed democratic Communist parties in 1930. Peaceful Communists were murdered

---

Lots of places did. It still doesn’t support your point, nor does it change the fact that the Soviets were the imperialists and colonialists in this conflict. You are the one “gladly dismissing” the facts.

quote:

---

Finland was spending the first half of the 20th century trying to figure out a way to invade Russia.

---

By which you mean to liberate East Karelia from the imperialist colonialist oppressors.

quote:

---

And the world OPPOSED DEMANDING Russian troops to leave Ukraine.For the sake of peace.

---

“War is Peace”. Very Orwellian.

quote:

---

The West never cease it war-mongering schemes.

---

What schemes are those. Not appeasing Putin so that he has to fight a war for territorial expansion?

quote:

---

Russia is fighting for peace.

---

By which you mean “surrender to the imperialists or they’ll declare war and it’s all your fault.” You probably love the use of cluster bombs against civilians,

quote:

---

Facsists like you speak with a forked tongue. I can decipher the language, however.

---

I’m not the fascist here. And you certainly speak with a forked tongue. Indeed “decipher the language” us code for “tell vicious lies” as you have been caught doing on multiple occasions.Go take you your white imperialist colonialist lies to somewhere they’ll be more appreciated.

More delusional bullshit. None of this fake history has crapolla to do with Putin's invasion of Ukraine.It warms my heart that your hero, that murderous tyrant Putin, lives every day in fear of assassination. Sooner or later he will taste his own poison, while your brain continues to rot.

At least LNA is not trying to charge us for his translations from the original Russian, ну?

Russia found itself in posession of East Karelia around 1700.The situation had more to do with the Swedes and Finns fighting, than anything else.The Greater Finland concept was a relatively new Finnish nationalism concept, in the period around World War 1.There were Red Finns who opposed nationalists.You are arguing for a nationalism that overturned 200 years of stable borders.You are arguing for a fascist-alligned invasion of a sovereign nation (Russia), which was generous to Finland.You are an outright Fascist ( I almost feel it is fair to throw in the 4 letter *N-word, because Germany was the actual ally).

I actually have talked about the Polish double-standard for about 10 years, including my early posts here.I had a conversation with a (ethnic Puerto Rican) friend in New York, in 2014, and he has family in Sweeden. He read a large (10 pages) Economist article about the Polish economic growth, post-EU. It was my magazine, so when he returned it, he could not stop talking about Poland. We talked about how poor Ukraine was, and issues that would keep it from joining the EU.I said the U.K. was the biggest obstacle.Immigration came up.I pointed out the irony, in that these eastern-European nations are fairly nationalistic & anti-immigration, but they are happy to be able to cross borders themselves.I pointed that irony out HERE on EvC as well. I remember doing so, at least once. Early after I started posting here.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

quote:

---

Russia found itself in posession of East Karelia around 1700.

​

The situation had more to do with the Swedes and Finns fighting, than anything else.

---

More to do with the Swedes and Russians fighting over Finland. Finland was not an independent state at that time. And indeed, Finland was subject to the Russian Empire after that.

quote:

---

The Greater Finland concept was a relatively new Finnish nationalism concept, in the period around World War 1.

---

Because boundaries established by imperialists are sacred? Really?

quote:

---

There were Red Finns who opposed nationalists.

---

Those would be the violent revolutionaries who fled to Russia after they lost the civil war they started.

quote:

---

You are arguing for a nationalism that overturned 200 years of stable borders.

---

Stable borders? With Finland changing hands between Russia and Sweden ? With the border changes in 1917?(ABE) And if you’re talking about the Continuation War that was about recovering land taken by Russia in the Winter War.

quote:

---

You are arguing for a fascist-alligned invasion of a sovereign nation (Russia), which was generous to Finland.

---

No, you’re the one arguing FOR invasion, remember ? You’re supposed to be showing that the Soviet invasion of Finland in the Winter War was about “support for oppressed people who suffered colonialism and discrimination”. So far the only “oppressed people who suffered colonialism and discrimination” we’ve discussed have been the people of East Karelia under the Soviets.

quote:

---

You are an outright Fascist

---

Then why are you the one defending imperialism and colonialism?Oh right it’s because “fascists speak with forked tongues”. You do that a lot.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

You cant stop lying, can you?I said Russia has border concerns, due to suffering 2 catastrophic invasions from the west, in the 20th century.I said Russia had a major problem with nationalists and fascists, trying to invade them.I drew a very clear distinction between Russia's border problems and the support for oppressed people around the globe.It is true, however, that even the border situation defense often results in better lives for the border nations involved.I can never keep up with your disingenuous & endless misrepresentations. You twist everything, and onlookers will be confused, for sure.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

WTF does the fact this friend is Puerto Rican have to do with anything?

I loaned him an Economist magazine, and his brother has a Sweedish wife.Sweeden is a non-fascist EU member.NOT A MEMBER OF NATO!I did not mention the Polish article, which mentioned the poverty of Ukraine.But when he returned the issue, he only talked about an article that I fid not even mention.We talked alot about the EU and NATO, previously, though. Finland was discussed.

I will make it simple:My American friend has spent months living in Sweeden, and his brother lives there.