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Author | Topic: The War in Europe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why should the US be in charge? Who do you suggest be in charge?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
biased ringo writes: Right now, your authoritarians - and that includes you - are the most dangerous (human) force on earth. Next to them, Putin is a saint. Interesting. And what makes these domestic (im assuming) authoritarians so dangerous? Is it because we won't let you print money for social programs? If so, we are simply trying to preserve the value of the dollar, but we have a backup system of investments should it crash. We resist globalism. (at least I do...I dunno about the rest of the so-called authoritarians.
We learned a long time ago that your predictions are worthless. The jury is still out. If you dont think China will be the dominant nation on earth by 2030, you have a lot of reading to do."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Phat, Phat, please think first.
Yes everyone knows basing a world currency on the currency of one nation is inherently dangerous. The oil shocks of the 80s wrenched that up big time. The dollar is still the de facto world currency (store of value) until everyone, Phat, everyone, agrees otherwise. You are in no danger of waking up one morning to hear that overnight the rest of nations switched to Then the dollar will be free to float and adjust, unencumbered by the pressures as the world's currency, in accordance with our national worth, which is noticeably sliding downward. Yeah, being nothing special in a world of equals is going to take some getting used to.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
phat writes: Theodoric writes: Why should the US be in charge? Who do you suggest be in charge? Thinking about your global government, the people should be in charge. Each individual has the right to vote and a constitution lays out how the government is organized and includes a list of citizen rights that the majority cannot override.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
After Russia promised to de-escalate! As it happened: UK and US urge caution on Russian pledge to reduce attacks - BBC News
quote:Note that Mykolaiv is a key shipbuilding hub. Im telling you Russia wants control of the sea and the resources. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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So what else is new, Phat. Of course the Russians want to control. That's why they manufactured this war to being with. They want control of the whole coastline and then inland to Kiev and west to the Polish border. That is what they want to control, not just a few ports.
But you are not wrong. Black Sea control is why the Crimea was so necessary to Catherine the Great. That's why Putin went and took back in 2014. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
phat writes: ringo writes:
Interesting. And what makes these domestic (im assuming) authoritarians so dangerous? Right now, your authoritarians - and that includes you - are the most dangerous (human) force on earth. Next to them, Putin is a saint. Authoritarians think they can break any law, commit any crime, against individuals or humanity with impunity. You don't think that's dangerous?What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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That is simply absurd Phat.
Phat writes: The Dollar will be replaced as the currency of global trust. That is just stupid Phat, really stupid, astoundingly stupid. Name the currency that does not have global trust? Is the British Pound trusted? The French Franc? The Japanese Yen? The Chinese Yuan? Right now only one of the thousands of current currencies does not have global trust.
Phat writes: Do you honestly think that money is given value merely by a common agreement? Yes Phat, that is exactly what gives value to any currency.
Phat writes: If so, what is the asset backing the common agreement?? There is NO asset backing common agreement rather it is the common agreement itself that is the only determining factor. The agreement is made based on a mutual assessment to the relative stability of the issuing party relative to each other issuing party.My Website: My Website
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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To back up what jar said;
The “full faith and credit of the United States” which is the only "asset” backing the dollar, as powerful an idea as it may be, is still only a persistent ephemeral fiction as long as the world wants to believe. There is nothing there but a promise. Right now I believe you. I have confidence I can take to the bank. Next year? Maybe not so much. Thus it is with all currency. As it is with any store of value. The value is in the common perception. Even for gold. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Who do you suggest be in charge? Again Phat, that is a really really stupid thing to say. NO Nation should be in charge and no nation is in charge. It's fools that think or want a nation to be in charge that are a major threat. Look at Russia. It's the largest nation currently. And in a matter of hours a consensus of nations decided that Russia was NOT worthy of being part of the world commerce. Period. End of story. That consensus made the Ruble almost totally valueless in a matter of minutes. The world works somewhat functionally today BECAUSE no nation is in charge. The US dollar has value only because a consensus of nations agree to its worth. If there develops a consensus that the Yaun should be the standard then the Yaun would replace the dollar. And nothing would change. The exchange rate between Yaun and USD would still be the consensus exchange rate. A US dollar would be exactly the same value as it was before. The biggest threat to the consensus would be the US acting like it was in charge. Try that and in a matter of hours the rest of the world could decide that the US was NOT worthy of being part of the world commerce. Period. End of story. In minutes the USD would be nearly worthless.My Website: My Website
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
This news report appears this morning: https://news.yahoo.com/...un-shelling-russian-005724169.html
This is extremely similar to the hypothetical I posed about Estonia which went like this. If the Russians set up an artillery battery on Russian territory near the Estonian border from which they bombard Estonia, if Estonia takes out the artillery battery are they attacking Russia? Or are they defending themselves? The news story I just cited describes a fairly similar scenario. Russia set up an ammunition depot on Russian territory near the Ukrainian border. If Ukraine takes out the ammunition depot, as they appear to be doing, are they attacking Russia? Or are they defending themselves? I ask this in the context of trying to gain clarification of your statement that enforcement of rule 5 of the NATO charter requires that if any NATO member is invaded by Russia then the rest of NATO is required, "forced" you actually said at one point, to attack Russia. I asked what "attack Russia" means, and the items you listed, like taking out radar and missile sites and such, sound like defensive measures intended to hinder Russia's ability to continue the invasion, no matter where those radar and missile sites happen to be, on Russian soil or elsewhere. If that's all you mean by "attack Russia" then sure, NATO rule 5 requires NATO members to attack Russia. But to me, unless qualified in some way "attack Russia" doesn't include measures taken for defense against an invasion. It means invading Russia. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Opinion | What if Putin Didn’t Miscalculate? - The New York Times, asks an editorial in today's times. I'll quote extensively since I'm not sure of the extent to which the NYT makes itself accessible to non-subscribers.
Maybe, the editorial suggests, Ukraine was never Putin's true goal. Maybe he just wanted its eastern regions to extend the Russian energy empire. As I keep reminding people, Russia is a country of enormous natural resources, and acquiring the Ukrainian energy fields would only make them greater. The editorial says it this way:
quote: --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Percy writes: This is extremely similar to the hypothetical I posed about Estonia which went like this. If the Russians set up an artillery battery on Russian territory near the Estonian border from which they bombard Estonia, if Estonia takes out the artillery battery are they attacking Russia? Or are they defending themselves? I know you think these are important distinctions but I do not. If Russia bombed Estonia it triggers Article 5 and the West will defend itself in whatever military terms are required. This would necessarily mean hitting Russia in Russia - especially if airfields and artillery or missiles where originating there.
The news story I just cited describes a fairly similar scenario. Russia set up an ammunition depot on Russian territory near the Ukrainian border. If Ukraine takes out the ammunition depot, as they appear to be doing, are they attacking Russia? Or are they defending themselves? They're doing both!
I ask this in the context of trying to gain clarification of your statement that enforcement of rule 5 of the NATO charter requires that if any NATO member is invaded by Russia then the rest of NATO is required, "forced" you actually said at one point, to attack Russia. I asked what "attack Russia" means, and the items you listed, like taking out radar and missile sites and such, sound like defensive measures intended to hinder Russia's ability to continue the invasion, no matter where those radar and missile sites happen to be, on Russian soil or elsewhere. If that's all you mean by "attack Russia" then sure, NATO rule 5 requires NATO members to attack Russia. Well there you go.
But to me, unless qualified in some way "attack Russia" doesn't include measures taken for defense against an invasion. It means invading Russia. Once again, I'm confused about how you could defend against an attack from Russia without attacking Russia and Russians. It wouldn't be possible to effectively defend against Russia purely from inside the country under attack - it would necessarily spread to supply chains, ammo dumps, radar installation, anti-aircraft missile systems, airfields etc etc within contact range of the actual battlefield.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Four other nations have the same power, so I wouldn't call it an actual veto. And it's part of what prevents the UN from getting anything done. We have veto power in the UN Security Council."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Are you kidding? Have you ever heard of Donald Trump? You guys are a few thousand votes from having him as President for Life. And his Republican henchmen are bending over backwards to make it happen.
And what makes these domestic (im assuming) authoritarians so dangerous? Phat writes:
Stop listening to the voices in your head. I have never advocated that.
Is it because we won't let you print money for social programs? Phat writes:
Helping the poor would do a lot more to preserve the value of the dollar. More taxpayers.
... we are simply trying to preserve the value of the dollar... Phat writes:
That's just stupid. Globalism is a fact. With the present state of communications and transportation, there's no avoiding it.
We resist globalism. Phat writes:
That's your favorite bumper sticker. It's just as worthless as your predictions. ringo writes:
The jury is still out. We learned a long time ago that your predictions are worthless. You're like Jeb Bush saying, "George is ahead! Stop counting!" Or Donald Trump saying, "I'm ahead! Stop counting!" Luckily for the real world, you don't dictate the time line. When all of the votes are counted, the elction is over. When the jury is in, it's in.
Phat writes:
If I read the same crap that you do, I might reach the same crappy conclusions. If you dont think China will be the dominant nation on earth by 2030, you have a lot of reading to do. You should try less reading and more thinking."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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