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Author | Topic: The War in Europe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Why the fuck are you guys arguing about this inane bullshit?
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Tany writes: Why the fuck are you guys arguing about this inane bullshit? Beats me, I've given up.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Tangle writes: But as you've now agreed with me, I guess it's moot. Yes. We agree now that a Russian attack on a NATO country would not mean suicide for Russia. But about this:
I still have no idea what your objection to what I was saying was Percy, I haven't changed anything. But you did change something. You originally said it would mean suicide for Russia, and what you're describing now is much more measured and doesn't in any way imply that an attack on a NATO country would be a suicidal action. You can't say now that you never meant suicide for Russia because you very clearly did. I quoted you saying it would mean suicide for Russia.
You seemed to be nit-picking trivia whilst missing the only point I was trying to make - that if a NATO member was invaded by Russia it would be forced to attack the Russian invading forces both on their own and in all likelihood on Russian territory too. What were you imagining the NATO response to be when you said Russia would be committing suicide? What impression did you think saying it would mean suicide would create in other people's minds? If it isn't obvious to you that "suicide" strongly suggests that Russia would not survive as a country or if it survived then it would be as a much diminished country, and that that could only happen through invasion (leaving the nuclear option aside), then that's a problem with language that would explain your proclivity for ambiguity. --Percy
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Tanypterix asks
Why the fuck are you guys arguing about this inane bullshit? because, as I said in Message 558Yes, it is semantics. But they are VERY important here. Right now it is important that the whole world sees Putin as an evil man and any sins cast upon Ukraine will compromise that effort. and i also said in that reply
The main difference is that war crimes are not used when defending a country, but bombing hospitals and other innocent civilians can be part of being the aggressor. See Hitler, see our travesty of Vietnam, Cambodia and so on. - which is where my sins cast upon one side or the other came from."I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside." Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned! Enjoy every sandwich! - xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Percy I have changed nothing.
An attack by Russia on NATO WOULD be suicide. It would either end in Putin's defeat and many deaths or WW111/III/3 - most likely the latter, unless there was a palace coup.. But I'm done arguing silly word games.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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Yeah, I get it. I just hate seeing people I respect engaging in pointless squabbles...
And I am sorry I got dragged into this mud-slinging.... What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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For example, if a force is defending a town against an attacking force, when they fire on that attacking force are they attacking it? Yes.
That has the potential to be very confusing. Not to the rest of us.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Why the fuck are you guys arguing about this inane bullshit? Because we were attacked by Percy and we need to defend ourselves by attacking his castle in turn. Or something like that.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
I was just listening to a retired high-ranking military guy commenting on the current situation.
Ukraine has fought off the invasion of Kyiv and the Russians are retreating. Ukraine has taken back 30 towns and the airport. The new strategic battle is about whether Putin can regroup to chop off the East of Ukraine. The general thought that there was now an opportunity for the West. If it armed Ukraine with longer range missiles and artillery, heavy tanks and more offensive weaponry there is a chance that it could push Russia back out of Ukraine. He believed that the West has to stand up to Putin now and be prepared to risk retaliation. Whether the West has the balls to take the risk is question, though there's rumours of Biden sending Russian made tanks that the Ukrainians know how to use.
quote: U.S. Will Help Transfer Soviet-Made Tanks to Ukraine - The New York Times Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
I can't access your New York times link, but where are they getting Russian made tanks? Russian tanks look like they are crap. It seems like, sooner or later the Ukrainians are going to ask why we sent them crap instead of stuff that works.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Tangle writes: I'm really struggling to understand the problem here. Hopefully replying to this will be a positive step toward helping you see the ambiguity:
An invasion by one country on another, is an attack on it. In defending against that attack, the invaded will attack the invaders. By this definition, any use of military hardware is an attack. Now you need to distinguish between defensive attacks and offensive attacks. Since you never used these modifiers or any similar ones, your use of the word attack was ambiguous. But of course, once you used the word "suicide" it removed much ambiguity. Russia committing a suicidal attack on a NATO country could only mean that the NATO response would be an aggressively offensive attack intended to wipe out Russia as a nation or at least diminish it greatly.
It's not remotely ambiguous, it's what's being played out in real time now. I've already said that with the inclusion of the "suicide" qualifier that it's not ambiguous, but it doesn't mean the same thing, either. It changes your argument while you simultaneously claim you haven't changed your argument.
The invaded will attack wherever they have to in order to defend themselves. Yes, I know, I just said something like this in a recent message. In firing on attackers the defenders are themselves attacking, perhaps even while in full retreat. Without qualifiers, the word "attack" can lead to a lot of ambiguity, and you mostly use it without qualifiers. You've already used it to mean a variety of things, among them both attacking Russia in a defensive way to halt an invasion, and attacking Russia in an offensive way to wipe it out as a nation.
In modern warfare that means attacking the enemy's supply lines, landing strips, launch pads, artillery that are being used to attack them wherever they happen to be, including the attackers home country if they possibly can. Yes, of course, but when you use "attack" in conjunction with achieving Russia's "suicide by attacking a NATO country" it means a lot more. It's dissembling to imply that it really means the defensively oriented measures I just quoted you describing. I understand that if you succeed in arguing that the "suicide" qualifier doesn't change the meaning that therefore you weren't wrong, but it's pretty hard to add or remove "suicide" without changing the meaning. --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Tany writes: I can't access your New York times link, but where are they getting Russian made tanks? Russian tanks look like they are crap. It seems like, sooner or later the Ukrainians are going to ask why we sent them crap instead of stuff that works. I don't know why I can see it - I'm not a subscriber, but here's the full story No idea where the tanks are coming from and if I did, I wouldn't tell you. The Ruskies do have some cool shit too - they just don't seem to be terribly good at using it at the moment.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4451 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Thanks.
NYT says I have to pay, but I hardly ever pay for subscriptions after the freebies. Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Let's quote a bit more of what I said. The part I added that wasn't in your message is in italics:
But that use of the word "attack" is in a much different context than saying that Russia attacking any NATO nation would be suicide for Russia because it would force NATO to attack Russia. The impression this creates in most people's minds is that NATO must invade and defeat Russia. No, it creates that impression in your mind, erroneously. Your response boils down to, "You're wrong," which tells me nothing. Please explain how I am wrong. It seems pretty clear to me that a suicidal attack by Russia on NATO means that the consequences for Russia must be pretty dire. It isn't like "suicide" in this context contains much ambiguity. I mean, it contains a little ambiguity of course. Does "suicide" mean Russia ceases as a nation? Or does it mean Russia survives as a much diminished nation? Or does it mean its government and institutions are replaced in a way similar to Japan after WWII? But achieving outcomes like these all require invading and defeating Russia, something Tangle is now denying he ever meant.
You don't like the word "attack". There's nothing wrong with the word "attack." What's wrong is using it ambiguously. Tangle's effort to equate two opposite interpretations of his use of the word make clear the ambiguity. First he used attack in conjunction with suicide, then when he saw that was untenable he stopped saying suicide while claiming he still meant the same thing.
If you don't like the word attack, or invasion, then use necessary military maneuver. The semantical differences are nil. And close your eyes to the border since, in war, it not longer exists. Again, I have no problem with the word attack. Language is infinitely flexible. Tangle could have said the exact same thing with the exact same amount of ambiguity using other words. The real problem is with ambiguity, which Tangle is attempting to use to obfuscate that he ever argued contradictorily. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Tanypteryx writes: Why the fuck are you guys arguing about this inane bullshit? There's a principle involved, that lies and misrepresentation should be called out because of the importance that people's thinking be informed by what is true. Times like these emphasize for us just how important this principle is. That you're asking this question tells us just how much it's been compromised, and how easy it is for the Trumpian approach of "never admit error" to succeed. This subthread isn't an issue of national importance, it's just a bulletin board discussion, but the principle still holds. --Percy
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