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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Tanypteryx
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(3)
Message 76 of 95 (892740)
03-13-2022 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by xongsmith
03-12-2022 11:44 PM


intellen did get some hits on google, though. but they all kinda still look like he made a typo.

just being generous here.

To me the whole line is just nonsensical gibberish.

None of his attempts to describe evolution bare any resemblance to reality. It's all just empty meaningless repetitious nonsense, and it doesn't get better with refinement.

We may have actually found the mythical, long sought after, bottom of the barrel!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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Admin
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Message 77 of 95 (892746)
03-13-2022 10:50 AM


I posted a response over at EVOLUTION IS FALSIFIED!!!!!!! before seeing the recent comments here. I guess the thing I wonder most about MrIntelligentDesign is how a mind can master reading, writing, grammar, spelling as well as understand a number of technical terms pretty well, get him through life everyday, enable him to hold down a job that provides well enough to give him an Internet connection, use a computer, drive a car, pay bills, etc., etc., etc., yet otherwise be completely dysfunctional?

It seems a fair question because we see it here quite a bit. Other currently or recently active members in this category but with their own unique styles are LamarkNewAge, Michael MD and Greatest I am.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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dwise1
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(1)
Message 78 of 95 (892750)
03-13-2022 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by xongsmith
03-12-2022 11:44 PM


Re: Biological Evolution Doesn't Need an Intelligent Agent
also he commits the begging the question fallacy here:
MrID writes:

Non-intentional change is wrong since biological cell is intellen

intellen is an intelligent agent that resides within the cell? This is even more confusing than the rest of ID insisting on an external Intelligent Designer "who shall remain nameless and unidentified, but who is in fact the fundamentalist Christian "God"; they are One And The Same (refer to DC superhero secret identities)." Now it's making far less sense than it wasn't making before.

But that begs yet another question: What is "intelligent design" supposed to have to do with biological evolution in the first place? Evolution is a completely natural process/set of processes that would function the same and produce the same results regardless of how life got here in the first place. IOW, regardless of whether life had arisen entirely through natural processes or were instantaneously poofed into existence by God wrinkling Her nose to the accompaniment of a tinkling sound (other churches insist on the folding the arms and blinking while making a very exaggerated head nod), the instant that life came into existence it would have immediately started evolving. And OBTW, an actual creationist (opposed to fake ones like YECs and IDiots) would recognize that those natural processes had themselves been created by their Creator and hence there is no inherent conflict between science (including evolution) and religion just so long as religion doesn't insist on silly ideas about reality, like YEC et al.

Anyway, at what point in biological evolution acting through life doing what life naturally does an external intelligence ever have to step in? Populations of organisms produce offspring. No need for an external intelligence there. For a given trait, the more parents possessing it means the more offspring inheriting it. No need for an external intelligence there. BTW, most seeds and zygotes fail to develop so they never become part of the gene pool and we never see them (figure we hear for humans is that 50% of conceptions abort spontaneously), which would account for MrID's bizarre "Dislocated Parts" ideas.

Only some of the offspring end up surviving to adulthood. No need for an external intelligence there, but rather it is intuitively obvious even to the most casual creationist observer that the offspring with traits that are more beneficial for survival will be more likely to survive. The offspring that end up being the parents of the next generation will be the ones who survived (whose definition should include being able to make it past sexual selection as well as having fully functional baby-making parts). Yet again, no need for an external intelligence there.

Whether given traits are beneficial or not depends on the environment in which the organisms must live and survive. No need for an external intelligence there. Over generations we should expect to see many if not most of the members of a population possess more of those beneficial traits and fewer of the disadvantageous traits. No need for an external intelligence there. As the environment changes (or the population moves into a new environment), which traits are beneficial or disadvantageous or neutral can and will also change. No need for an external intelligence there. Under those changed conditions and over the generations, the newly beneficial traits will come to dominate in the population. No need for an external intelligence there. Genetic mutations happen; it's a simple fact. No need for an external intelligence there. Most genetic mutations are either neutral or deleterious (remember those large percentages of seeds that fail to germinate and fertilized eggs that fail to develop?), but some are beneficial (both in terms of viability and of being advantageous in the environment). No need for an external intelligence there. Those new beneficial traits will spread through the population in accordance with population dynamics. No need for an external intelligence there.

I probably should have formatted those four paragraphs as a list, but I'm in a rush to get to a monthly skeptics brunch.

So, exactly what role is an external intelligence supposed to play in biological evolution? Since biological evolution works just fine without an external intelligence, why insist on imposing one?

Neither MrID's "New ID" (whatever that's supposed to be) nor conventional (ie, non-gibberish) ID make any sense. Evolution ain't broke, so why do you insist that you must fix it?

Edited by dwise1, : subtitle


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Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-13-2022 12:38 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 79 of 95 (892751)
03-13-2022 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by dwise1
03-13-2022 12:19 PM


Re: Biological Evolution Doesn't Need an Intelligent Agent
just so long as religion doesn't insist on silly ideas about reality, like YEC et al.

It seems to me that is the definition of religion, insisting on silly ideas about reality.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by dwise1, posted 03-13-2022 12:19 PM dwise1 has replied

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dwise1
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Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 80 of 95 (892753)
03-13-2022 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tanypteryx
03-13-2022 12:38 PM


Re: Biological Evolution Doesn't Need an Intelligent Agent
It seems to me that is the definition of religion, insisting on silly ideas about reality.

Wellll ... . Religion rightfully deals in ideas about non-reality. Things we cannot test. And, yes, a lot (but not all) of those ideas about non-reality are also silly. Science deals in ideas about reality and hence those ideas are testable and do get tested. But since reality has no bearing on those ideas of religion, there's no conflict.

But religion just cannot keep its damned dirty paws off of reality. That's when their ideas become testable, have been tested, and have been disproven. Which brings us to a response to proselytizers: "Every one of your claims that we've been able to test have proven to be wrong, so why should we trust your claims that we cannot test?"

Edited by dwise1, : corrected last word: prove -> test


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nwr
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From: Geneva, Illinois
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Message 81 of 95 (892755)
03-13-2022 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Admin
03-13-2022 10:50 AM


It seems a fair question because we see it here quite a bit.

They seem to have no interest in trying to persuade other people. They perhaps have not even grasped the idea of persuading. They seem to just assume that they are right and that everyone ought to automatically agree with them.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Stile
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From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 82 of 95 (892820)
03-15-2022 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Admin
03-13-2022 10:50 AM


EVOLUTION IS FALSIFIED!!!!!!!
Admin writes:

...etc., etc., etc., yet otherwise be completely dysfunctional?

As your other examples show (job, using a computer...) he's only completely dysfunctional in this very specific topic - evolution.

Which is a big deal, if you're working in biology.
But, for most average people... how much do we actually talk about biology in our day-to-day lives? Me? Not a bit.

I'm sure he's extremely scientific, practical and focused on reality when crossing the street... I bet he looks both ways first, just like everyone else.

But in a topic that's not a part of most people's every day life? It's pretty easy to be completely dysfunctional and not affect anything else.

As for the promotion of his topic:

  • If we're a science journal - then it's absolute craziness to promote such jibberish.
  • If we're an entertainment site - then it's a travesty to delay promotion a second longer. (Admin is having all the fun!)
  • If we're somewhere in the middle - well, then I understand your dilemma. Good luck.

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Admin
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Posts: 12791
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 83 of 95 (892831)
03-15-2022 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Stile
03-15-2022 8:42 AM


Re: EVOLUTION IS FALSIFIED!!!!!!!
Stile writes:

As for the promotion of his topic:

If we're a science journal - then it's absolute craziness to promote such jibberish.
If we're an entertainment site - then it's a travesty to delay promotion a second longer. (Admin is having all the fun!)
If we're somewhere in the middle - well, then I understand your dilemma. Good luck.

My goal since the very beginning, and still the goal, is to foster constructive discussion between the two sides. The site has not achieved this goal, and I've come to think it isn't possible, but it has turned a window onto human nature. It has been a clash of worldviews, one seeing the world as the evidence dictates, the other seeing the evidence as what their beliefs dictate.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Tangle
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Message 84 of 95 (892833)
03-15-2022 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Admin
03-15-2022 2:45 PM


Re: EVOLUTION IS FALSIFIED!!!!!!!
The Boss writes:

My goal since the very beginning, and still the goal, is to foster constructive discussion between the two sides.

A worthy goal, but one that assumes that both sides are rational.

The site has not achieved this goal, and I've come to think it isn't possible

We certainly haven't seen too many many changes of mind, but it does occasionally happen. However, these days we only get the real nutters.

but it has turned a window onto human nature.

Sure has.

It has been a clash of worldviews, one seeing the world as the evidence dictates, the other seeing the evidence as what their beliefs dictate.

I refer you to my tag line..

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
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Message 85 of 95 (893246)
04-02-2022 1:05 PM


MrID's Latest Crash and Burn
Why Evolution Is Wrong In Biology And What is Right?
MrID writes:

There are four major mistakes or errors of Biological Evolution that could NO longer be defended by any fair and honest proponents of Evolution.

Ironically, this is sort of true, but I'm not aware of anyone who understands biological evolution ever defending MrID's four major mistakes. It's all a huge strawman.

MrID writes:

These are the basis, the exclusivities, the methodologies and limited view of reality.

I tried to read his explanations at his link, but it is just meaningless crap that has no actual relationship to biological evolution. He seems to be trying to use fallacious reasoning to invalidate concepts that are not part of biology, without actually performing any biological research. It's all word games by someone who does not understand the language he is trying to use.

He hasn't demonstrated any knowledge of biology or comprehension of how to convince biologists that evolution doesn't explain life on this planet.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
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Member Rating: 3.2


Message 86 of 95 (893251)
04-02-2022 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tanypteryx
04-02-2022 1:05 PM


Re: MrID's Latest Crash and Burn
The boy cannot explain. And I don't see this as any language or cultural stop but an intellectual one. I seriously do not think he understands his own proposal.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 87 of 95 (893252)
04-02-2022 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by AZPaul3
04-02-2022 1:20 PM


Re: MrID's Latest Crash and Burn
The boy cannot explain. And I don't see this as any language or cultural stop but an intellectual one. I seriously do not think he understands his own proposal.

Yeah, but he claims to be the discoverer of intelligence, how embarrassing that he's wrong!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by AZPaul3, posted 04-02-2022 1:20 PM AZPaul3 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 04-02-2022 3:04 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
jar
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Posts: 33900
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Message 88 of 95 (893261)
04-02-2022 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tanypteryx
04-02-2022 1:31 PM


Re: MrID's Latest Crash and Burn
Just as there are alternate facts there must be alternate intelligence.

It's likely that MrId has a HUGE brain.


My Website: My Website

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 89 of 95 (893272)
04-02-2022 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
04-02-2022 3:04 PM


Re: MrID's Latest Crash and Burn
Just as there are alternate facts there must be alternate intelligence.

Trying to imagine it...

It's likely that MrId has a HUGE brain.

Yes, every cell is intelligent...


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 04-02-2022 3:04 PM jar has taken no action

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 90 of 95 (894418)
05-15-2022 3:09 PM


Dredge thinks not knowing everything is not knowing anything
Do scientists know how evolution works?
Dredge writes:
Scientists claim to know how evolution works
No scientist claims we know everything about how evolution works, but we do know a lot. We are still making observations and discoveries every day.
Dredge writes:
but if you gave the evolutionary scientists of the world the task of producing (evolving) a eurkaryote from a prokaryote ... or producing (evolving) an amphibian from a fish ... they'd be utterly c-l-u-e-l-e-s-s.
Well, if they did, you would just say they weren’t doing it properly anyway.
Humans have spent the past 10,000 years or more, turning wolves into poodles and thousands of other species into tens of thousands of varieties of domestic plants and animals.
So, while we might be clueless about your silly tasks, what we have achieved is quite remarkable.
Dredge writes:
So much for knowing how evolution works!
Knowing how a process works has no bearing on whether we could duplicate the steps the process took 500 million or 3 billion years ago.
Your silly assertions are the same as saying, physicists claim to know how nuclear fusion works, but they wouldn’t have a clue about creating a star from a cloud of Hydrogen.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Dredge, posted 05-17-2022 5:32 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
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