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Author Topic:   The Power of the New Intelligent Design...
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 313 of 1197 (893174)
03-30-2022 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by WookieeB
03-30-2022 3:03 PM


Re: Bump for Mr.ID
I still cannot understand anything MrID is talking about. He needs to define his terms before he starts using them.
That fair. He doesn't understand it either.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 324 of 1197 (893495)
04-15-2022 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by MrIntelligentDesign
04-15-2022 4:04 AM


Re: But is Any of Your Stuff Googly, MrID?
We have no way of deciding what is an intention.
In ordinary life, humans are said to have intentions. But we cannot measure those intentions.
Yes, we ascribe intentions to other people. And when we do that, we often get them wrong. You have probably had experience of people accusing you of intentions that you never had.
Intentions are not reliable things that can be used in science. Whether evolutionary changes are a result of intentions is beyond what science can determine.
Simply put, evolution is non-intentional change in biological world.
We cannot determine what is intentional. It is better to look to evolution in terms of change, and avoid the question of whether that change is intentional.
People who want to think of evolution as guided by God may see God's intentions behind the changes. But that adds nothing to the science.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 390 of 1197 (893725)
04-19-2022 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by MrIntelligentDesign
04-18-2022 11:28 PM


Is biological cell intelligently designed or not?
Give us your definition of "intelligent" and your definition of "design". Without those, your question cannot be answered.
Is the universe intelligently designed or not?
This is unknowable. But maybe your definitions will clarify this, too.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 391 of 1197 (893726)
04-19-2022 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by MrIntelligentDesign
04-18-2022 11:29 PM


Re: Bump: No Help. Let's Try Again
I have the best answers, you just simply are denying them.
You don't have any answer at all.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 401 of 1197 (893761)
04-19-2022 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by WookieeB
04-19-2022 2:41 PM


You do realize that there is no math without logic.
I'm pretty sure that Tangle's point was that logic by itself is insufficient.
Figure out why a causal chain going backwards in some temporal chain infinitely is not logically possible.
Of course, it is possible. That often happens in mathematical models.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 408 of 1197 (893803)
04-20-2022 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by WookieeB
04-20-2022 2:53 PM


So it might be an interesting mathematical concept, but it is not anything rooted in real spacetime.
That it is possible in mathematical models shows that it is not ruled out by logic.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 411 of 1197 (893837)
04-20-2022 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by WookieeB
04-20-2022 7:57 PM


Simply put, an infinite series does not have a finite sum.
Nonsense.
How are you defining a "logical impossibility"?
It has nothing to do with how PaulK defines "logical impossibility". It was you who made the claim of logical impossibility.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 422 of 1197 (894053)
04-29-2022 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by WookieeB
04-29-2022 3:09 PM


Nobody can fully calculate the sum.
You cannot fully calculate the sum in WookieeB-math. But it is easily done in ordinary math.
Or, to say it differently, you are spouting nonsense.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 429 of 1197 (894060)
04-29-2022 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by WookieeB
04-29-2022 4:50 PM


Re: Lest You Forget
If some proposed, real entity (ie:causal chain, universe) never began to exist, then the number of past events in the history of such an entity is infinite. But having an actually infinite number of things cannot exist. If they could, various absurdities would result.
Have you ever looked at Zeno's paradox? You are making a similar mistake.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 430 of 1197 (894061)
04-29-2022 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by WookieeB
04-29-2022 4:54 PM


Then please show an example. I have a feeling "special cases" means bending the normal rules.
Mathematics is a system of conventions.
When we write: 3 + 5
we are depending on conventions -- in this case, the conventions for addition.
Talk of infinite sums is also conventional. What we mean by an infinite sum is a matter of convention.
You are arbitrarily rejecting some of the normal conventions of mathematics.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 437 of 1197 (894068)
04-29-2022 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by WookieeB
04-29-2022 8:37 PM


Re: Lest You Forget
So you have to apply a particular definition of infinity that does not work like any other number.
There's part of your problem. You are thinking of infinity as a number. But it isn't. It's a concept, but it isn't a number.
The problem you are all making is a category error (or more precisely a modal operation shift in logic) in how you are defining or using infinity.
No, you are the one making a category error.
In one aspect, you use it like a number, but it is not a number.
No, I always understand that it is not a number.
So you keep having to change your definitions and point of view each time you try to justify it.
No, we do not change our definitions.
You keep complaining about "actual infinite". But there isn't an actual number 3, either. There are actual numerals "3". But the number is an abstraction rather than anything actual.
You are very confused about mathematics, yet you are using your confusion to pontificate.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 450 of 1197 (894264)
05-08-2022 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by WookieeB
05-08-2022 5:54 PM


Sigh. Another WookieeB spew of nonsense.
Yes, infinity is an abstract concept, not a number.
Great. And in case you don't know, numbers are also abstract.
With adding up sums to get a finite number, you need a finite amount of numbers. Since infinity is neither, it doesn't work.
What doesn't work?
When we talk of the sum of an infinite series, we are following the conventions of mathematics. Nobody claims to actually add them step by step. Mathematics has well established conventions for discussion of infinite series. And those conventions work very well.
If you don't like the conventions, then don't use them. There's no point about repeatedly getting red in the face with anger at people doing things that they don't actually do.
The universe had a beginning.
This is your assertion. Do you have any supporting evidence?
Most scientists today agree with that.
Do you have a link to the poll where you determined this?
As far as I know, most physicists are clear that they are talking about a period of rapid inflation, and not about any actual beginning.
You are using a convention that is accepted in calculus, but that convention has no representation in reality.
All of mathematics is conventional. And it works very well for modeling reality.
If you are going to throw out calculus because it uses conventions, then you should also throw out simple arithmetic, which also uses convention. And you should stop trying to count objects, because counting is also conventional.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by WookieeB, posted 05-08-2022 5:54 PM WookieeB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by WookieeB, posted 05-18-2022 4:23 PM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(6)
Message 461 of 1197 (894523)
05-18-2022 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by WookieeB
05-18-2022 4:23 PM


As I have said, numbers and math can be used to reference reality, as some models do.
Strictly speaking, the numbers represent components of the mathematical model. But we tend to gloss over that distinction in ordinary talk.
But unlike some finite numbers or terms, infinity as an abstract concept does not represent an actualized reality.
Do you realize that you are arguing against yourself here?
Our scientists make observations of the early universe. But they never see a beginning. To talk of the universe beginning is to project backwards beyond what is observed. By doing that, you are insisting on an actualized infinity. So you repeatedly deny that there can be an actualized infinity, while you also insist on it.
Everyone else has been cautious enough to avoid that, and to point out that we do not actually know that the universe had a beginning.
But what you do not seem to understand is what those conventions of mathematics actually mean.
​I'm a professional mathematician. Or, more accurately, I am a retired professional mathematician. May I suggest that my understanding of those conventions is likely to be better than your understanding of them.
As for limits in calculus, which still is an abstract concept that all math is, they don’t actually mean that the equal sign actually means exactly equal.
That's very confused.
How we use the equal sign is itself part of the conventions of mathematics. And the use of "equal" in mathematics is different from the use of "equal" in ordinary life.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by WookieeB, posted 05-18-2022 4:23 PM WookieeB has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 531 of 1197 (902384)
11-23-2022 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 530 by MrIntelligentDesign
11-23-2022 6:25 AM


When you say "PRODUCT", you knew very well that it requires a criteria, either intelligent had been used or not...

Then, tell me, what is that criteria?
You are the person who has been making a big deal over intelligence. It is up to you to provide the criteria.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 648 of 1197 (906204)
02-08-2023 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Dredge
02-08-2023 1:01 PM


BTW, do you like my new avatar?
It is spewing out crud. Yes, that fits you very well.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Dredge, posted 02-08-2023 1:01 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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