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Author Topic:   Anti-theist
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1347
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 586 of 609 (894372)
05-13-2022 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by dwise1
05-11-2022 11:18 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
dwise1 writes:
You just touched on a pet peeve and wish of mine: Believers should learn what their beliefs are and where they came from (ie, what they are actually based on).
Right on, brother! Why can't those idiots get it right?!
So many believers actually think that their beliefs come from the Bible even though that is not true.
That's because not everything is in the Bible.
What we encounter all the time are "believers" who believe in things that aren't even in their religion.
Horrendous.
I think that every believer needs to study his religion as thoroughly as possible, which must include learning the history of individual beliefs.
Ain't that the t-r-u-t-h!
Reminds me of John Henry Newman (1801-1890), a Anglican priest and theologian who set out to study the history of the early Church to disprove the Catholic claim that she is the very same Church set up by the apostles.
After studying Church history, Newman became convinced that the claim of the Catholic Church is correct - it is the true, apostolic Church.
Newman then converted to Catholicism, was ordained a priest, rose to the rank of Cardinal and was canonised as a Catholic saint in 2019.
Newman famously said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2022 8:51 PM Dredge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 587 of 609 (894373)
05-13-2022 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by Dredge
05-13-2022 8:39 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."
That's not the way I remember it.
"To be deep in religion is to cease to be human."
I may be wrong but I believe that this is the proper quote.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Dredge, posted 05-13-2022 8:39 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1347
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 588 of 609 (894374)
05-13-2022 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by AZPaul3
05-13-2022 8:51 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
AZPaul3 writes:
That's not the way I remember it.

"To be deep in religion is to cease to be human."

I may be wrong but I believe that this is the proper quote.
This is right up there with your best work; no doubt about it. Well done.

Edited by Dredge, .

Edited by Dredge, .


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 589 of 609 (894391)
05-14-2022 3:40 PM


Sunday Sundae Service Reminder

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(2)
Message 590 of 609 (894392)
05-14-2022 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by AZPaul3
05-14-2022 3:40 PM


Re: Sunday Sundae Service Reminder
Who? Bruise Willis?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


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ringo
Member
Posts: 19519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 591 of 609 (894410)
05-15-2022 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by Dredge
05-13-2022 7:00 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Dredge writes:
Peter received the divine powers of authority and infallibility
when Jesus gave him the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" and told him, "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt 16:19)
And yet Peter denied Jesus three times. How does that demonstrate infallibility?
Dredge writes:
Jesus told the apostles, “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of t-r-u-t-h comes, he will guide you into all the t-r-u-t-h " (John 16:12-13).
But He didn't overturn the truths that He had explicitly told them - e.g. the instruction to give up everything they had.
Dredge writes:
In other words, Jesus did not reveal all his teachings when he was on earth. Rather, the Holy Spirit revealed them to the Church later, in the fullness of time.
Again, He did not overturn the instructions He had already given.
Dredge writes:
The Church is the "fullness" of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and teaches the faithful the knowledge and doctrines of God (Eph 4:11-14). Therefore the Catholic Church's teachings are the teachings of Christ.
And you're claiming that the early churches, set up by the apostles themselves, were not faithful to the teachings of Christ?
Who killed Ananias and Sapphira?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by jar, posted 05-15-2022 2:53 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 592 of 609 (894411)
05-15-2022 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by Dredge
05-13-2022 7:24 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Dredge writes:
ringo writes:
​For the same reason that "thou shalt not steal", etc. became untenable - believers preferred to believe in the voodoo aspects of Christianity - e.g. the resurrection - and avoid the practical aspects - e.g. loving their neighbors.
I didn't know that.
Now you do.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 593 of 609 (894414)
05-15-2022 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by ringo
05-15-2022 2:18 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
What's so funny is that Ephesians are company interoffice memos from Paul who most definitely was NOT Peter.

Edited by jar, : fix wordling


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by ringo, posted 05-15-2022 2:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19519
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 594 of 609 (894416)
05-15-2022 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by jar
05-15-2022 2:53 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
"The Bible is true, even when it contradicts itself."

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by dwise1, posted 05-15-2022 3:55 PM ringo has seen this message

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5062
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 595 of 609 (894419)
05-15-2022 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 594 by ringo
05-15-2022 3:00 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
"The Bible is true, even when it contradicts itself."
quote
"Especially when it contradicts itself."
--- paraphrasing Garak (see Especially the Lies , YouTube, 2:00)
 

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1347
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 596 of 609 (894423)
05-16-2022 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 593 by jar
05-15-2022 2:53 PM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
With devastating arguments like that you could destroy Christianity.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by AZPaul3, posted 05-16-2022 6:30 AM Dredge has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 597 of 609 (894424)
05-16-2022 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 596 by Dredge
05-16-2022 4:40 AM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Then you have no objection to the fact that it wasn't Peter but Paul that formed and led the catholic church. Your first pope wasn't a fisherman after all. He was a state prosecutor.
An omen of what would come.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Dredge, posted 05-16-2022 4:40 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 598 of 609 (894425)
05-16-2022 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 597 by AZPaul3
05-16-2022 6:30 AM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
Paul was simply one of the charter chapters of Club Christian. Each of the many different churches were separate and independent and it was Peter that is alleged to have been the leader of the Church in Rome. Paul organized quite a few other chapters of Club Christian and until very near their deaths Paul & Peter were not quite in agreement about almost anything.
It was a couple centuries before the Church in Rome was considered as much more than simply 'the first among equals'. But the Roman Catholic Church was not a creation of either Peter or Paul but rather a political creation of Constantine and only about 300 years after either Peter or Paul.

My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by Dredge, posted 05-16-2022 9:20 PM jar has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1347
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 599 of 609 (894461)
05-16-2022 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by AZPaul3
05-16-2022 6:30 AM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
AZPaul writes:
Then you have no objection to the fact that it wasn't Peter but Paul that formed and led the catholic church.
Sorry, but you've got your wires crossed. Galatians 2:1-9 clearly demonstrates that, not only was Paul not the leader of the Church, but that he was under the authority of Peter and the apostles:
Paul was sent by the Holy Spirit to the Church leaders in Jerusalem to give account of what he had been preaching. The leaders (including Peter, James and John) subsequently approved Paul's preaching and extended to him "the right hand of fellowship".
Acts 15 also clearly demonsrtates that Paul was not the leader of the Church: Firstly after having a disagreement with certain Jewish Christians, Paul went to the Church leaders in Jerusalem to have the matter settled (v.1-2).
Secondly, at the following Jerusalem Council, Paul's role was minor and he made no doctrinal decision. In fact, it was Peter's doctrinal decision that settled the debate on whether or not Gentile believers must follow the law of Moses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by AZPaul3, posted 05-16-2022 6:30 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1347
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 600 of 609 (894462)
05-16-2022 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by jar
05-16-2022 8:31 AM


Re: Prayer For The Universe
jar writes:
Each of the many different churches were separate and independent
This is nonsense. There is nothing in the books of Acts that suggests "the many different churches were separate and independent". On the contrary, Acts describes a Church that is a single, discrete organisation led by and under the authority of Peter and the apostles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by jar, posted 05-16-2022 8:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by jar, posted 05-16-2022 9:41 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 604 by Theodoric, posted 05-17-2022 9:46 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
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