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Author | Topic: Anti-theist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And it also says that He creates evil.
The Bible clearly says many times that God is good. Phat writes:
You're just making that up. The Bible is pretty clear what God embodies, despite your sanitized fantasies. The Creator may have created good and evil but He does not embody it."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nonsense. You're thinking about an extremely small segment of "believers". There is no consensus among believers even about who or what God is.
I would assert that a consensus regarding God's nature can be found among believers. Phat writes:
I WOULD LOVE TO! But you refuse to bring any of their arguments here.
If you insist on indicting me, you had best take on many apologists. Phat writes:
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
Can you stand up to them quote for quote? Phat writes:
He does that Himself.
Though I suppose you will attempt to indict the Creator of the universe for again allowing wars and deaths. Phat writes:
"Free will" is bullshit. You only trot it out when it suits you. As if He is supposed to stop the free will of autocratic humans and soldier pawns."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Oh come on. They're not "giving anything up". They're having it taken away from them by force.
There are many serious believers who are now fleeing the Ukraine--giving everything up to flee the evil from the autocratic Putin. Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with trusting anybody in the church. It's about trusting Jesus. Ananias and Sapphira were killed by God for holding back.
I guess what holds me back is that I don't trust every single person in the church. Phat writes:
And yet you're the one who is not persuaded to obey Jesus.
I just don't like the idea that you are winning this argument without being persuaded to obey Jesus. Phat writes:
Because Jesus said so.
Why must Christians support the whole world when we ourselves don't have much? Phat writes:
Read my lips : There is no Jesus!
*sigh*...then why the heck don't *you* give everything up and join us? Phat writes:
Fairness has nothing to do with it.
It's not fair to see you all warm and comfy in your house while refugees pass you by! Phat writes:
Not at all. Not even close. One standard, period: If you believe in Jesus, you should be doing what He said. If you don't believe in Jesus, it wou;d be stupid to do what He (supposedly) said.
ringo writes:
Double standard. If there is no hook, why would I be on it? and if you believe there is a hook, why wouldn't you be on it? Phat writes:
But there's ZERO evidence. And half the time you tell us there can't BE any evidence.
My prayer, then is that there will be enough evidence for you.... Phat writes:
Just once, could you do me a favour and read what I write? I'm not hoping for any "miracle", as I've told you many, many, many times. I'm recognizing that we need to DO it ourselves because there isn't going to BE any miracle. Humanism isn't some vague hope. it's all there is.
... quit holding back hoping for a secular humanist miracle... Phat writes:
There is no "fallen world". God said so Himself. The only thing that's fallen is your mind. ... in an otherwise fallen world."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jar writes:
Even the self-proclaimed "fundamentalists" that I used to know used consecrated olive oil for laying-on of hands. There are protestant denominations that also use consecrated water in specific settings."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
AZPaul3 writes:
Well, I never saw anything like that in church. I think I would have remembered that. Olive Oil? Isn't that used in their sex rituals? No, they would "annoint" the person with a dab of olive oil on the forehead. I think it was mostly for healing but it may have also been used as a blessing for people going out to the mission field or to pastor a new church. The cynic in me suggests that there's more money in olive oil selling it by the ounce than by the gallon."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
For the same reason that "thou shalt not steal", etc. became untenable - believers preferred to believe in the voodoo aspects of Christianity - e.g. the resurrection - and avoid the practical aspects - e.g. loving their neighbors.
... that communal system became untenable.... Dredge writes:
Jesus didn't teach infallibility of the Pope but that's what Catholics do. He didn't teach praying to saints but that's what Catholics do. If Jesus preached that all Christians must live in communes and hand over all their possessions and money, that's what the Catholic Church would teach ..."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
And yet Peter denied Jesus three times. How does that demonstrate infallibility?
Peter received the divine powers of authority and infallibilitywhen Jesus gave him the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" and told him, "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt 16:19) Dredge writes:
But He didn't overturn the truths that He had explicitly told them - e.g. the instruction to give up everything they had.
Jesus told the apostles, “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of t-r-u-t-h comes, he will guide you into all the t-r-u-t-h " (John 16:12-13). Dredge writes:
Again, He did not overturn the instructions He had already given.
In other words, Jesus did not reveal all his teachings when he was on earth. Rather, the Holy Spirit revealed them to the Church later, in the fullness of time. Dredge writes:
And you're claiming that the early churches, set up by the apostles themselves, were not faithful to the teachings of Christ? The Church is the "fullness" of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and teaches the faithful the knowledge and doctrines of God (Eph 4:11-14). Therefore the Catholic Church's teachings are the teachings of Christ. Who killed Ananias and Sapphira?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
Now you do. ringo writes:
I didn't know that. For the same reason that "thou shalt not steal", etc. became untenable - believers preferred to believe in the voodoo aspects of Christianity - e.g. the resurrection - and avoid the practical aspects - e.g. loving their neighbors."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
"The Bible is true, even when it contradicts itself."
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
Sounds more like the janitor than the head. Jesus gave "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" to one man - Peter - thereby making Peter the head of the Church. (Matt 16:18-19)"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
Btw, what is your understanding of the Catholic doctrine of Papal Infallibility?quote Dredge writes:
Doctrines are generally designed to be unassailable, even if they're nonsensical. The doctrine is a dogma after all. ... even if Peter denied Jesus in the same way after the day of Pentecost, that wouldn't contradict the doctrine. In any case, it seems like an odd choice to give a serial denier the keys to the cookie jar. But then Jesus was not infallible, was He? He could easily make a fallible decision about infallibility.
Dredge writes:
Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 18:22.
When did Jesus give the instruction that all his followers must give up everything they have? Dredge writes:
Very good.
God killed Ananias and Sapphira. Why did He kill them?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Not "a" servant, YOUR servant:
The greatest among you will be a servant...quoteAnd it does on: quoteWatch the Pope humble himself. And it still goes on:
quoteWoe unto you exclusivists who shut up the kingdom of heaven against men. Edited by ringo, . "I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
It isn't an "interpretation". It's word-for-word what Jesus said.
Simply from a practical point of view your interptetation of those verses makes no sense. Dredge writes:
1. It was Jesus who said it, so ask Him. Do you think He was an idiot, expecting his followers to do the impossible? For example, where would Christians live if they gave up all their possessions? How could they pay the rent? 2. The disciples did exactly what Jesus said. They relied on Him to provide food and a place to sleep. 3. The early church did exactly as Jesus said: Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Dredge writes:
Every Christian doesn't need his own frypan. He can donate it to the communal kitchen where everybody can use it.
A Christian can't own even a frypan or a knife and fork? Dredge writes:
Cummunal living-room.
A Christian can't own a radio or a phone... Dredge writes:
Communal transport pool.
... or a bicycle or a car? Dredge writes:
See above - and use your head.
Can a Christian own a towel? What about a pencil? Dredge writes:
That question is especially egregiously silly. Does every parent own their own school?
How would Christians be able to raise children if the parents give away all their possessions? Dredge writes:
A Cristian community can own a business.
A Christian can't own a business? Dredge writes:
Well, no. Jesus was answering the direct question, "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" It was a requirement for eternal life.
In Matt 19:21, Jesus says "If you would be perfect, sell what you possess and give it the poor". So Jesus is in effect saying "ideally, this is what you should do"... Dredge writes:
So does Phat. So do you, it appears. it's a pretty common problem.
... that particular man he was speaking to had a particular problem - he loved money more than he loved God... Dredge writes:
Exactly.
(it is also an allusion to the vow of poverty that all Catholic priests will take later on in the history of the Church). Dredge writes:
So you know better than the early church? It's what they did. Ananias and Sapphira were killed for not doing it. To interpret Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 18:22 as "Jesus says all his followers must give away all their possessions and live in poverty" is a stupid and incorrect exergesis."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Dredge writes:
He robs poor people to build his palaces.
Tell me, if the Pope goes out and rob banks... Dredge writes:
He does.
... and rapes altar-boys... Dredge writes:
By proxy, he does.
... and becomes a serial killer... Dredge writes:
It certainly does, you Pharisee. He breaks the spirit of infallibility, if not the letter. You might as well say he's only infallible when he's facing Mecca or when he's wearing his special pope-hat. ... does that mean he has contradicted the Catholic dogma of Papal Infallibility?"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Irrelevant. Jesus told you to do it, so if you believed in Him you would do it. There are no trustworthy Apostles at whose feet we should lay our goods. If the "apostles" - e.g. your beloved lying apologists - rip you off, then that's on them. If you refuse to do it, it's on you.
Phat writes:
Nobody's asking you to. But if the government came for everything you have, you would certainly give it up. They don't take no for an answer. I certainly wouldn't give it all up to the government."I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!" -- Lucky Ned Pepper
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