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Author
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Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 2776 of 3207 (894662)
05-25-2022 12:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 2771 by Phat
05-24-2022 3:24 PM
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Fixed it for you Phat.
It is obvious that humans invented and defined God and his attributes; all them different gods with all them different attributes. As for God within traditional Christianity, there has also been little consensus but the real God is to be found in a loyal and honest adult believer no matter which real God he believes in. A Grandma who talks with God every day. Is she delusional? Were she in the middle of a catastrophe would she panic or would she trust the One whom she has prayed to and communicated with for fifty years instead of trying to find the best way out of the catastrophe or avoid the catastrophe in the first place? Any skeptic would be beside themselves trying to drum up such an instant connection. They would bargain with, plead with, and need an answer...and then actually try to implement the answer instead of hoping Holy Jeeves would do it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2771 by Phat, posted 05-24-2022 3:24 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2777 by Phat, posted 05-25-2022 8:17 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2777 of 3207 (894667)
05-25-2022 8:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 2776 by jar
05-25-2022 12:38 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
First of allo, why must it always be one way or the other with you? Our hypothetical Grandmother does not just sit on her blessed assurances and talk to God every day. She has a life. She raised a family. Her children knew her to be a tough old broad but they also witnessed her prayer life at times. She didn't expect the government to fix her problems. She wisely avoided most of them anyway. My example of a catastrophe would be if she had lived in Ukraine, for example, and if the irrational actions of Russia and Putin scared most of her neighbors off. She saw the helicopter, the motorboat and the rescuers whom God sent to help her act. She took full advantage of His blessings and she trusted that her prayers were answered. Unlike the old man from Texas who believed that all Gods and gods were made up and who trusted his trusty gun more than the Almighty to help him survive! 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2776 by jar, posted 05-25-2022 12:38 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2779 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 8:42 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 2781 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:57 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2778 of 3207 (894668)
05-25-2022 8:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 2775 by ringo
05-25-2022 12:04 PM
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Re: How So?
Well, I'm critical of your thinking! If belief is in last place, you would need evidence that God did not exist. You yourself spent 30+ posts arguing with Stile that he didn't *know* that God did not exist, yet you tell me that you have evidence that negates the need for any belief!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2775 by ringo, posted 05-25-2022 12:04 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2780 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:49 AM | | Phat has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 2779 of 3207 (894673)
05-26-2022 8:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 2777 by Phat
05-25-2022 8:17 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
I can only go by what you post Phat. You said "Were she in the middle of a catastrophe would she panic or would she trust the One whom she has prayed to and communicated with for fifty years?" There is nothing in what you posted other than saying she would wait for "Holy Jeeves" to do it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2777 by Phat, posted 05-25-2022 8:17 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2780 of 3207 (894680)
05-26-2022 11:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 2778 by Phat
05-25-2022 8:20 PM
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Re: How So?
Phat writes: Well, I'm critical of your thinking!
No you're not. Criricism requires resoning. Your disagreement with my conclusions is based on wishful thinking, not reasoning.
Phat writes: If belief is in last place, you would need evidence that God did not exist.
Nonsense. We don't need evidence for non-existence. Non-existence is the default. We don't need evidence for non-existence of Long John Silver or Holden Caulfield or Frodo Baggins.
Phat writes: You yourself spent 30+ posts arguing with Stile that he didn't *know* that God did not exist...
That argument had nothing to do with the existence of God. It was about knowledge.
Phat writes: ... yet you tell me that you have evidence that negates the need for any belief!
When did I say that? I have evidence that your belief is empty - your posts here on EvC - but your "need" for belief is pretty obvious. Even if it was proven beyond any reasonable doubt that your God doesn't exist, you would still have a "need" for some god, whether it was Zeus or gold. Your belief in gods is an addiction.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2778 by Phat, posted 05-25-2022 8:20 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2783 by Phat, posted 05-26-2022 2:38 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2781 of 3207 (894681)
05-26-2022 11:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 2777 by Phat
05-25-2022 8:17 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes: Our hypothetical Grandmother does not just sit on her blessed assurances and talk to God every day. She has a life. She raised a family. Her children knew her to be a tough old broad but they also witnessed her prayer life at times. She didn't expect the government to fix her problems.
And yet the government did fix her problems, repeatedly. Her "prayer life" (I hate that phrase) didn't.
Phat writes: She wisely avoided most of them anyway.
You misspelled "stupidly". Her refusal to accept the government's help does not diminish the practical usefulness of the humanist system.
Phat writes: My example of a catastrophe would be if she had lived in Ukraine, for example, and if the irrational actions of Russia and Putin scared most of her neighbors off. She saw the helicopter, the motorboat and the rescuers whom God sent to help her act. She took full advantage of His blessings and she trusted that her prayers were answered.
You're completely missing the point of the story. She refused the "blessings" sent by her fellow humans and stupidly waited for God to poof her out of trouble. And it didn't happen. She died at the end of the story.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2777 by Phat, posted 05-25-2022 8:17 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2782 of 3207 (894682)
05-26-2022 2:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 2781 by ringo
05-26-2022 11:57 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
You're completely missing the point of the story. She refused the "blessings" sent by her fellow humans and stupidly waited for God to poof her out of trouble. My point is that your order (belief being in last place )is completely backward. We don't pray and then wait. It is not one or the other. We pray and then act. You would have us simply acting in humanist unison (as if there even were such a thing) and ignore God except as an afterthought. You often claim that God has never evidentially shown up. I would markedly disagree. God is Spirit. Humanism has no collective spirit apart from an imaginary one. Why do you think politics is always divided? Why do you think that a unified world (apart from a NATO military alliance) is never within reach? Yet you would rather hide behind the fact that since you don't believe God exists, you can hide from spiritual unity except on your own terms. And theres the rub. A Global Communion without God is in reality a countterfeit. Edited by Phat, : added points
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2781 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2797 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 11:57 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2783 of 3207 (894683)
05-26-2022 2:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 2780 by ringo
05-26-2022 11:49 AM
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Re: How So?
ringo writes: Your disagreement with my conclusions is based on wishful thinking, not reasoning. I would argue that 50 years of daily prayer and communion is more of a discipline than a fantasy. It's like working out to strengthen the body...except that it strengthens the mind. Rule#1: YOU are NOT in charge. You are responsible, but NOT the Boss. Rule # 2: Imagining yourself in charge is like telling me I think I'm infallible.
ringo writes: We don't need evidence for non-existence. Non-existence is the default. Science always questions the default of the day. Science is not meant to judge or conclude anything.
ringo writes: That argument (with Style)had nothing to do with the existence of God. It was about knowledge. If I recall correctly, you said that nobody can have perfect knowledge without conducting every possible experiment. (an impossible task) When I said that you claim to have evidence that places belief in last place, you forgot to admit that you did not have perfect knowledge confirming your evidence. I have said before that I never consider myself infallible but that I believe that Jesus is infallible. Hence the daily prayer life for our wonderful Grandma. You will retort that even if the God Grandma prays to is infallible, she isn't. Which I would agree with.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2780 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:49 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2784 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 3:04 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 2798 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 12:10 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 2784 of 3207 (894684)
05-26-2022 3:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 2783 by Phat
05-26-2022 2:38 PM
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Re: How So?
How can you tell whether any response you get from prayer is from Jesus and not Satan? You have never ever even tried to answer that question.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2783 by Phat, posted 05-26-2022 2:38 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2787 by Phat, posted 05-26-2022 6:11 PM | | jar has replied |
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EWolf
Member (Idle past 270 days) Posts: 18 From: Lehigh Acres, Fl Joined: 11-10-2021
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Message 2785 of 3207 (894685)
05-26-2022 4:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
10-10-2012 2:27 PM
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Hello Stile, What do we do about the fact that we were told that God exist? If we find a sand castle on a beach we know its builder exists. Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate? ELD
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Stile, posted 10-10-2012 2:27 PM | | Stile has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9503 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.6
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Message 2786 of 3207 (894687)
05-26-2022 5:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 2785 by EWolf
05-26-2022 4:46 PM
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EWolf writes: What do we do about the fact that we were told that God exist? I heard that some bloke said something weird to a few other blokes about 2,000 years ago. Sadly the first bloke got himself killed by upsetting the local bosses. That would have been the end of that except that 300 years later a pagan Roman emperor decided it would be good politics to create a new religion to join his territories together. The rest is, well, you know the rest.
Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate?
A lot of people reckon Allah did it. But it might have been Ik Onkar?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2785 by EWolf, posted 05-26-2022 4:46 PM | | EWolf has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3176 by EWolf, posted 09-16-2022 8:19 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18292 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2787 of 3207 (894688)
05-26-2022 6:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 2784 by jar
05-26-2022 3:04 PM
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One apologetic answer
jar writes: How can you tell whether any response you get from prayer is from Jesus and not Satan? In line with tradition and dogma, Jesus was a conduit for the Creator of all seen and unseen. Satan was attempting to mimic God yet was nothing more than a mouthpiece for his own imagined and actual authority. He told a partial truth in saying that he and we will be like God. The keyword is like. A fake Gucci bag is like a genuine one. A counterfeit twenty dollar bill is like an actual one. So how does anyone tell the difference? I know that you are no fan of apologists, but Beliefnet had what I consider a good article addressing your question which, after reading, I can agree with.
5 Ways to Distinguish Between God’s Voice and Satan’s Voice Read the short article as it elaborates, but in brief: 1) It Causes Panic, Not Calm (Satans Voice) 2) It Goes Against God’s Word 3) It Weakens Your Prayer Life 4) It Feels Like Commotion 5) It Makes You Feel Worthless Comments?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2784 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 3:04 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2789 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 7:10 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8525 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.2
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Message 2788 of 3207 (894689)
05-26-2022 6:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 2785 by EWolf
05-26-2022 4:46 PM
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What do we do about the fact that we were told that God exist? I would guess you would do the same as when you were told that Stile's Santa exists.
If we find a sand castle on a beach we know its builder exists. Same as with a new car in the dealer's showroom.
Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate? Your reactions to society and society's reactions to you.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2785 by EWolf, posted 05-26-2022 4:46 PM | | EWolf has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3177 by EWolf, posted 09-16-2022 8:34 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 2789 of 3207 (894690)
05-26-2022 7:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 2787 by Phat
05-26-2022 6:11 PM
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Re: One apologetic answer
You do realize that everything you quoted from nonbeliefmakeshitupnet is contrary to what is written in the Bible. Have you ever read the Bible? Try reading Genesis 2 & 3. It's short with little words and contains a description of both God and Satan's voice. And you do understand that EVERY believer in EVERY God says exactly the same thing you say?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2787 by Phat, posted 05-26-2022 6:11 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: 09-06-2016
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Message 2790 of 3207 (894691)
05-26-2022 9:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 2781 by ringo
05-26-2022 11:57 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
ringo writes: You're completely missing the point of the *****. She refused the "blessings" sent by her fellow humans and stupidly waited for God to poof her out of trouble. And it didn't happen. She died at the end of the *****.
I could tell about the time God "poofed" me out of trouble by literally saving my life by warning me audibly of an unseen danger that I was a few seconds away from ... but I won't, because you'd dismiss it as a fantasy or a lie or a manifestation of mental illness. I could also tell you about a full-on vision I had that showed me the future in precise detail ... but I won't, because you'd dismiss it as a fantasy or a lie or a manifestation of mental illness. Apparently, the machine doesn't want me to use the word, "s-t-o-r-y" (*****)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2781 by ringo, posted 05-26-2022 11:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
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