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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 992 of 1184 (895138)
06-08-2022 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 991 by jar
06-08-2022 2:30 PM


We have the nation we desire.
Desire or deserve, jar?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 2:30 PM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 993 of 1184 (895140)
06-08-2022 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 991 by jar
06-08-2022 2:30 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
jar writes:
BUT you are wrong that most mass murderers do not show signs beforehand. Unfortunately those signs are most often pointed out after the fact.
I can't be wrong about something I didn't say. In fact I said the opposite, even listing ways that a mass murderer might have presented before the crime.
It isn't uncommon for mass murderers to have presented as having mental health issues beforehand. But there is no way to tell when a mental health issue is just a mental health issue, and when it's a sign of a person about to commit mass murder. There is no way to tell when a quiet or an angry guy is just a quiet or an angry guy, and when he's a ticking time bomb.
We have the nation we desire.
Maybe it's the nation you desire, but sure not me.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 2:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 994 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 4:22 PM Percy has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 994 of 1184 (895141)
06-08-2022 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 993 by Percy
06-08-2022 3:16 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
LOL
Come on now Percy.
You have listed the things we do that we should not do.
Nor have you explained why it would be impossible if we had the resources to tell whether someone is truly dangerous or simple mouthing off.
But the reason we don't have such resources is because we have not funded the metal health system that would be needed.
And that is the pattern.
We have the society the majority of Americans wanted and created.
You might want it to be different, I might want it to be different but the reality is that wanting simply doesn't change reality.
If things are going to change then reasonable and achievable programs, processes, procedure, models or methods must be presented, approved, funded and implemented.
So far I have been the only person in this thread to actually proposes such things.
Unfortunately, it seems that there is simply no desire to actually approve, fund and implement what needs to be done.
Everyone says they want an answer now but so far no one has suggested a way that reasonable and achievable programs, processes, procedure, models or methods must be presented, approved, funded and implemented that might have any real impact in less than a half century.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 993 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 3:16 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 995 by Phat, posted 06-08-2022 6:11 PM jar has not replied
 Message 997 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 6:29 PM jar has not replied
 Message 1003 by Percy, posted 06-09-2022 9:14 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 995 of 1184 (895142)
06-08-2022 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by jar
06-08-2022 4:22 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Could it be that the money for such programs simply isn't available in these times?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 4:22 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 996 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 6:18 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 996 of 1184 (895143)
06-08-2022 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 995 by Phat
06-08-2022 6:11 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Have you seen Exxon's profits?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 995 by Phat, posted 06-08-2022 6:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 998 by Phat, posted 06-08-2022 6:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 997 of 1184 (895144)
06-08-2022 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by jar
06-08-2022 4:22 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
Unfortunately, it seems that there is simply no desire to actually approve, fund and implement what needs to be done.
We have known this for a while.
Message 917

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 4:22 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 998 of 1184 (895145)
06-08-2022 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 996 by AZPaul3
06-08-2022 6:18 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
So? The public has no access to them.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 996 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 6:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 999 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 7:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 999 of 1184 (895147)
06-08-2022 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 998 by Phat
06-08-2022 6:40 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
That could change if the political will is there. Just tax them an extra $500 billion this year. Easy.
And then we can go get the other Big Capitalist hoards of cash.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 998 by Phat, posted 06-08-2022 6:40 PM Phat has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 1000 of 1184 (895148)
06-08-2022 8:09 PM


a plot that kinda blurs things
Note: this plots a count of the shootings, not the deaths. it was from wikipedia and already has fallen out of date for 2022.
I added the yellow rectangle to show the ban's effect.

Edited by xongsmith, : added comments


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


Replies to this message:
 Message 1001 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 9:50 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1001 of 1184 (895149)
06-08-2022 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1000 by xongsmith
06-08-2022 8:09 PM


Re: a plot that kinda blurs things
So are you suggesting a magazine capacity limit?
Remember, there are hundreds of millions of what many would call High Capacity magazines.
Whatever law you want passed needs to be achievable.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1000 by xongsmith, posted 06-08-2022 8:09 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1076 by AZPaul3, posted 06-28-2022 3:59 PM jar has not replied
 Message 1117 by Phat, posted 12-12-2022 3:59 AM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 1002 of 1184 (895151)
06-09-2022 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 948 by marc9000
06-07-2022 12:19 PM


Re: Biden's speech
marc9000 writes:
Divert?? Too little time?? This isn't the early 20th century, they have things called video cameras now, etc...
You need to turn up the sensitivity on your sarcasm detector. You've blamed the media for many things over the years. I don't think there's any path back to rationality for you.
Who can tell what goes on the minds of mass shooters? You, obviously. You just told us they're all copycats.
That wasn't an analyzation of their minds,...
You're sure right that it wasn't that.
....it's an observation of how they are, mentally disturbed, sick, stupid.
Mentally disturbed, sure, and sick, sure, assuming you're using it as a synonym for mentally disturbed, but stupid?
They're not capable of much originality.
Yes, we know you think this. You called them all copycats. Yet somehow they're capable of detailed information gathering, meticulous planning, and very effective plan implementation.
It's not logical to blame hardware, simple hardware by today's standards, for actions of people.
A potential mass murderer without a gun is just a person. It's the guns.
You don't think those other things you mentioned deserve exploration?
It would be like back in the 1950's when car safety was just beginning to receive attention to put the focus on road signs instead of on seat belts, impact absorbing frames and bodies, roll cages, air bags.
Couldn't some additional money, from new taxes on the news media, be put to good use by exploring those things further?
Sure, except that that you're only proposing these things as a way of distracting attention from the real problem: guns.
Wouldn't you on the left...
I'm not on the left. I'm on the side of life and sanity.
...emotional interviews by reporters like Amy Robach.
...
And you don't think the media is doing the equivalent of that today, by what they did to Nick Sandman, to Kyle Rittenhouse, and the Amy Robach frenzy they're stirring up for profit and ratings?
I don't watch TV news. I've never heard of Amy Robach. I think video is the slowest way possible to communicate information and get very little of my information that way.
Yes, because there's no question that 18 to 21 year olds are now buying up guns in record numbers,...
Gun incidents increase the sense of threat from firearms and make it more likely for people to buy guns, but it remains true that a gun in the house places a person as well as that person's family and friends at greater risk of firearm injury and death. Unfortunately, few people have heard this, and fewer believe it.
If you're against ANY exploration of what can be done to reign in today's corrupt news media,...
I believe a free press is essential to democracy.
...that they're completely untouchable and can do anything they want to exploit human nature's more unfortunate characteristics...
I think the Rush Limbaughs and Alex Jones and Glenn Becks and Tucker Carlsons and Sean Hannitys do all that, but they're part of a free press. Though I guess one could argue that they're actually engaged in entertainment, not journalism.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 948 by marc9000, posted 06-07-2022 12:19 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1005 by marc9000, posted 06-09-2022 8:04 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1003 of 1184 (895152)
06-09-2022 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 994 by jar
06-08-2022 4:22 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
"LOL Come on now Percy" gives no indication what you're responding to. But hey, I'll play the game. "LOL! Come on now Jar." Now you too can play the game of "guess what the heck part of my post this refers to."
You have listed the things we do that we should not do.
Not in the post you're responding to. You going to have to remind me of what I said and where I said it. Llke quote it, maybe. That would be just super.
Nor have you explained why it would be impossible if we had the resources to tell whether someone is truly dangerous or simple mouthing off.
I think you have a science fiction view of what psychology is capable of.
We have the society the majority of Americans wanted and created.
Even gun-nuts don't want firearm injuries and deaths. The vast majority of the country is horrified at the high murder rate, and especially at the increasing rate of mass murders, which is now around 1 or 2 a day.
You might want it to be different, I might want it to be different but the reality is that wanting simply doesn't change reality.
Now you're contradicting yourself. First you say this is the society most Americans want, and now you say we want it to be different. Make up your mind.
I think what you're really trying to say, or at least should be trying to say, is that most Americans are not drawing a connection of gun prevalence with its impact on society. Too many Americans want the impossible dream of having their guns and being safe, too.
If things are going to change then reasonable and achievable programs, processes, procedure, models or methods must be presented, approved, funded and implemented.
What is achievable in the current political environment will not have any noticeable impact on the gun problem. We can't even get the minimum through Congress. The gun control bill passed by the House last night will die in the Senate - they already know the votes aren't there.
So far I have been the only person in this thread to actually propose such things.
You're also the only person to think so.
Unfortunately, it seems that there is simply no desire to actually approve, fund and implement what needs to be done.
You mean to take the guns away? Yes, you're right, the overall political will to do this does not exist, not even close.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by jar, posted 06-08-2022 4:22 PM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 1004 of 1184 (895154)
06-09-2022 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by jar
06-06-2022 8:03 AM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
jar writes:
The good guys with guns are obeying the laws and working very hard to promote actually addressing root causes rather than stupid stuff like more utterly dumb gun laws.
You're missing the irony. There's no such thing as "good guys with guns." They're all bad guys with guns, just most haven't shot anyone yet. It's analogous to the "good Christian" thing. They're all bad Christians, just most haven't offended the relevant Christian community yet.
The problem is complicated.
No, the problem is not complicated. Gun prevalence is responsible for the high firearm injury/murder rate, and there's no way to get rid of them. The correct word is impossible, not complicated.
But you can make it seem very complicated by arguing that there are effective things we could do in the current political climate, but there really aren't. Again, the current gun control bill in Congress illustrates this.
The root causes of violence are what needs to be addressed.
How much violence can a man do? Compared to what guns can do, a man with no gun can only commit minimal violence. But a man with guns can commit maximal violence with many injured and murdered.
The root cause of gun violence is guns.
First...Second...Third...Fourth...Fifth...Sixth...Seventh...
Uh, no. These are just armchair musings. If you feel strongly about any of those ideas, the ones that actually bear on guns, present research studies showing they work.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by jar, posted 06-06-2022 8:03 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1046 by Percy, posted 06-22-2022 5:38 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 1005 of 1184 (895158)
06-09-2022 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1002 by Percy
06-09-2022 8:52 AM


Re: Biden's speech
You need to turn up the sensitivity on your sarcasm detector. You've blamed the media for many things over the years. I don't think there's any path back to rationality for you.
Sarcasm? It looked more like knee jerk emotion to me. That I easily refuted. You've stated before, as you did later in this thread, that you don't watch television news. How was I to know how informed you are concerning their reach and influence? Sarcasm, seamlessly blended with emotion, is where 90% of anti-gun rhetoric comes from. Usually easily refuted with facts of course, but put fourth shortly after a mass shooting it can cause facts to soar over the heads of emotional gun control advocates.
In a previous general reply message, you said this;
Most people own guns for emotional reasons, not practical or factual ones.
Really amazing, you take a characteristic of gun controllers, then turn it 180 and apply it to gun owners. Do you think the founders who wrote and approved the second amendment did it strictly on emotion? That people today who are trying to preserve a 240+ year old right do it on emotions?
marc9000 writes:
They're not capable of much originality.

Yes, we know you think this. You called them all copycats. Yet somehow they're capable of detailed information gathering, meticulous planning, and very effective plan implementation.
Information gathering, planning, plan implementation, aren't originality. They're copying what past shooters have done, as was meticulously described to them by the news media, over and over, days and weeks beyond the date of the shooting.
A potential mass murderer without a gun is just a person. It's the guns.
How about a big strong young man with a baseball bat or a crowbar? Who knows that the only people with a gun is a uniformed police officer, of which he knows there are none within miles. He enters a school - a blow to the head can kill just a s fast as a bullett. How many kids can he kill before he is stopped? If he traps them in a room they can't run. Then he can move on to other rooms, one by one.
Sure, except that that you're only proposing these things as a way of distracting attention from the real problem: guns.
Their access has been free and open in the U.S. for its entire life of about 240 years. Only in the past 50 years ago did a small segment of the Democrat party come up with things like the Brady law, waiting periods etc. Only in the last 20 or 30 years has the entire Democrat party made disarming the public its top priority. Coincides perfectly with the invention of global warming / climate change. Some of the emotional cries about solutions to climate change aren't possible to ram down the throats of an armed citizenry.
I don't watch TV news. I've never heard of Amy Robach. I think video is the slowest way possible to communicate information and get very little of my information that way.
Then you're very uninformed about what's actually going on, because it's a fact that that's how a huge percentage of the public gets its news, about what they hear. Over-the-air, mainstream news. You'd know, as one example, how woefully uninformed they are about the on-going disaster at the southern border. I haven't noticed ABC World News Tonight say one word about it in at least 6 months.You should make an exception right this minute, it's 20 minutes before 8 pm, 20 minutes before Pelosi's hand picked Trump hating committee gets the national spotlight, the January 6th hearings. David Muir said it was a bi-partisan committee. He lied. There are only 2 Republicans on it, both of them voted to impeach Trump.
Gun incidents increase the sense of threat from firearms and make it more likely for people to buy guns, but it remains true that a gun in the house places a person as well as that person's family and friends at greater risk of firearm injury and death. Unfortunately, few people have heard this, and fewer believe it.
They have good reason not to believe it. Statistics have been coming in from Australia after they largely disarmed their citizens years ago. While both sides use some of those statistics to bolster their case for or against guns, the one glaring one that many people see is the fact that homes in Australia are now more likely to be broken into, while the residents are home. The intimidation factor of the possibility of getting shot makes burglars a lot more brazen. Not a comforting thought to rural homeowners. Or women, especially if the burglar is a big guy with a crowbar.
I believe a free press is essential to democracy.
More than once at EvC, (maybe in the Climate Change thread, no time to look through it now) I've been told that climate change and steps to control it can only be determined by the scientific community, that the general public isn't educated enough. For that one reason, and many others, I believe an armed citizenry is essential to democracy.
I think the Rush Limbaughs and Alex Jones and Glenn Becks and Tucker Carlsons and Sean Hannitys do all that, but they're part of a free press. Though I guess one could argue that they're actually engaged in entertainment, not journalism.
This past Tuesday, on ABC World News Tonight, you know, a half hour show that's supposed to recap major news of the day all around the world, spent the first 20 minutes of the 30 minute show sensationalizing about a shooting that happened 2 weeks ago. I can't watch ABC, CBS and NBC all at once, but it's safe to say they all did something similar. One can easily argue that the mainstream media is engaged in little more than entertainment, entertainment for one political party.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1002 by Percy, posted 06-09-2022 8:52 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1006 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2022 11:28 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 1011 by Percy, posted 06-10-2022 9:22 AM marc9000 has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(3)
Message 1006 of 1184 (895159)
06-09-2022 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1005 by marc9000
06-09-2022 8:04 PM


Re: Biden's speech
How about a big strong young man with a baseball bat or a crowbar? Who knows that the only people with a gun is a uniformed police officer, of which he knows there are none within miles. He enters a school - a blow to the head can kill just a s fast as a bullett. How many kids can he kill before he is stopped? If he traps them in a room they can't run. Then he can move on to other rooms, one by one.
And yet, over here, in the UK, where we don't allow people to walk around with guns, that didn't happen last week. Or last month. Or last year. Or the year before that. And so on.
You've pointed to a hypothetical. The evidence is to the contrary.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by marc9000, posted 06-09-2022 8:04 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2022 3:52 AM vimesey has replied

  
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