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Author Topic:   Flat Earth Theory = Creationist Theory?
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5259 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 16 of 28 (89211)
02-28-2004 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by truthlover
02-27-2004 10:23 PM


Re: Satirising satire
truthlover writes:
It appears talkorigins.org is gullible enough to believe it, too.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html
I think there are flat earthers out there, Sylas.
I can't speak for the whole talkorigins team, but I think most of us are not actually that gullible . The people involved in talkorigins are a very loosely knit and diverse mob. I'm one of them, in a small way.
For my own part, I am skeptical about flat earthers being out there, and stand by my comments above without any modification. I do think I speak for the talkorigins team in saying that we would love to hear of any serious flat earther. As far as I know, the last was Charles Johnson, and he died in 2001. He was the author of the flyer in the talkorigins FAQ.
I think there are some people on the periphery of talkorigins who might continue to claim that there might still be flat earthers around; but noone has been able to give an example of one, as far as I know.
The talkorigins FAQ that is cited above has a bit of a history.
We have had to disable the feedback link from that page, and place a prominent disclaimer, to try and prevent people sending us feedback to say we were idiots for believing in a flat earth. Check out what happens when you hit the feedback button on that page. (Answer: nothing.)
We still get a few feedbacks of that kind, but not many; and I harbour a sneaking suspicion that someoone aware of the history of talkorigins involvement on this topic is yanking our collective chain.
In my opinion, the FAQ is badly out of date. At the time it was written, Charles Johnson was still alive, and so the claim in the FAQ which reads as follows: "... there are still real people who interpret the Bible so literally that they think Earth is flat." was technically correct at the time it was written. I do not think it is correct any more.
So thanks for reminding me of this; it might be an idea to add an epilogue to the page. I'll suggest it.
I know about the fixed earth people; they are for real. I know about the current flat earth society. They are not for real; but the more people who think they are for real the happier they will be.
So there is a point to satire about the flat earth. It raises the question: how do you refute someone who insists that flat earth is a valid scientific perspective? It's like trying to slam a revolving door. It's like trying to shepherd a cat in a given direction. It's like trying to argue with a young earth creationist. My only quibble is that I don't think we can claim the flat earthers are for real; not since the loss of Charles Johnson.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by truthlover, posted 02-27-2004 10:23 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by truthlover, posted 02-28-2004 10:48 PM Sylas has not replied
 Message 20 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 1:34 AM Sylas has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4058 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 17 of 28 (89332)
02-28-2004 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tony650
02-28-2004 1:35 AM


Re: Satirising satire
Heh, you repeated both of my links!
I missed your post. Bizarre. It's such a short thread, and I thought I read the first ten messages before I posted. Maybe I had a petit mal seizure or something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tony650, posted 02-28-2004 1:35 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 1:18 AM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4058 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 18 of 28 (89333)
02-28-2004 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Sylas
02-28-2004 3:37 AM


Re: Satirising satire
Thanks for the info, Sylas. I was already thinking for apologizing for sounding sarcastic in one of my comments. I was actually worried about sounding like an idiot for thinking they might be real, then, after I read my post, I thought it sounded sarcastic, rather than self-conscious.
It seems there's no proof any of the flat-earthers are for real, and I realized right after I posted that saying "talkorigins folks apparently believe" was definitely too much of a generalization.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Sylas, posted 02-28-2004 3:37 AM Sylas has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 19 of 28 (89356)
02-29-2004 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by truthlover
02-28-2004 10:41 PM


Re: Satirising satire
truthlover writes:
I missed your post. Bizarre.
Heh heh, don't let it bother you. It's no biggie.
More than anything, I was curious about the contents of your second link...
Page not found | Department of History
I'm afraid it's still just giving me a "Not Found" error.
Is this happening to anyone else, or is it just my computer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by truthlover, posted 02-28-2004 10:41 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by truthlover, posted 02-29-2004 4:23 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 20 of 28 (89360)
02-29-2004 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Sylas
02-28-2004 3:37 AM


Re: Satirising satire
Sylas writes:
As far as I know, the last was Charles Johnson, and he died in 2001. He was the author of the flyer in the talkorigins FAQ.
I did a little research on this earlier, and based on the paltry amount of data I could find, I think you're right. I'm curious...Do you know if there were any serious members, besides Johnson and his wife, back when they were actively heading the society? I recall reading on one of those links that they had, at one time, accumulated a few thousand members, worldwide. I must admit, I find this a little hard to swallow. Assuming, of course, that these were supposed to be serious members.
Sylas writes:
We have had to disable the feedback link from that page, and place a prominent disclaimer, to try and prevent people sending us feedback to say we were idiots for believing in a flat earth.
If there's one thing that never ceases to amaze (and disturb) me, it's how thick some people can be, with regard to that page. The first time I saw it, I effortlessly understood its purpose. Now, I'd love to be able to proclaim my genius for having done so, but it's really not a difficult concept. How much easier does it get than the first thing you see, at the top of the page, being a disclaimer in big, bold letters stating that talkorigins does not believe in a flat earth? Yet there's always one dipstick who'll say...
OMG!!! U PEOPLE R SO STUPD!!!!! THE EARTH IZ A SPHERE!!!!!! A SPHRE!!!!! GOT IT???? THIS IZ THE DUMEST SIET!!!! U R AL IDDITS!!!! GET A LIF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Suffice it to say that I've always admired talkorigins' apparently unyielding patience.
Sylas writes:
...the claim in the FAQ which reads as follows: "... there are still real people who interpret the Bible so literally that they think Earth is flat." was technically correct at the time it was written. I do not think it is correct any more.
Again, I'd say you're correct. But here's a thought that occurred to me. While I wouldn't argue specifically for the existence of modern flat-earthers who base their belief on the Bible, I wonder if it would be possible to find people among, say, the indigenous tribes of the world's most secluded locations, who are in the most literal sense "flat-earthers" simply because they've never had any reason to believe otherwise. They are subject to the isolated ignorance that Crash mentioned, in an earlier post, so they simply believe what their eyes tell them, just as primitive man did.
Again, this isn't an argument for The Flat Earth Society, and frankly, I don't even know if there are still any locations remote enough to create this kind of isolation, but it was an interesting thought, so I thought I'd share. Not my area, to be sure, so I hope y'all don't mind me tossing the idea out there.
Sylas writes:
I know about the fixed earth people; they are for real.
Yes, so I understand. Another one I'm interested in is the hollow-earth view. Do you have any data (or links) on this? Does it have any actual adherents, or is it also more or less a joke?
With regard to the fixed-earth view, I actually recall reading a rather interesting argument once about whether or not the earth could be viewed as the stationary point of reference just as much as can the sun (or anything else). I don't think this person was arguing for the actual geocentric model, per se. I believe their point was that if all motion is relative and there is no truly fixed point of reference, then is it not just as accurate to view the earth as fixed, while the rest of the universe goes on its merry way about us, as it is to assume the sun as our fixed point of reference, or the center of the galaxy, etc?
I believe that one of the problems with this view is that, as the earth rotates once on its axis every 24 hours, it would require objects at greater and greater distances to be orbiting us at increasingly higher speeds, eventually exceeding the speed of light.
This is all very rudimentary stuff, of course. I'm only a layman, myself, so I'm sure one of the real astrophysicists here can set me straight on the details.
Oh man, do I prattle! Sorry Sylas. Just so that you know, that wasn't all directed specifically at you. I was responding to some of your points but it's pretty much open to anybody who wants to comment or correct me on anything. Please don't feel obligated to reply to everything I wrote, if you'd prefer not to. I know I ramble on, sometimes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Sylas, posted 02-28-2004 3:37 AM Sylas has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by compmage, posted 02-29-2004 6:27 AM Tony650 has replied
 Message 22 by JonF, posted 02-29-2004 8:47 AM Tony650 has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5152 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 21 of 28 (89376)
02-29-2004 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tony650
02-29-2004 1:34 AM


Re: Satirising satire
Tony650 writes:
I don't even know if there are still any locations remote enough to create this kind of isolation...
Last week sometime a family was discovered living in South Africa who hadn't seen another human being in about 20 years. I would have to dig a bit to find an article again, if you really wanted. I don't know what they believed as far as the shape of the earth goes though.

Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in
this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely
conceives it, wants it, and loves it.
- Mikhail Bakunin, God and the State, from The Columbian Dictionary of Quotations

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 1:34 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 5:07 PM compmage has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 22 of 28 (89388)
02-29-2004 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tony650
02-29-2004 1:34 AM


Re: Satirising satire
Yes, so I understand. Another one I'm interested in is the hollow-earth view. Do you have any data (or links) on this? Does it have any actual adherents, or is it also more or less a joke?
Aren't the Urantians hollow-Earthers? I know one for-real Urantian personally (and I want to keep him as a friendly acquaintance, so I'm not going to discuss it with him ... I couldn't hide my opinions).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 1:34 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 5:13 PM JonF has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4058 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 23 of 28 (89432)
02-29-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tony650
02-29-2004 1:18 AM


Re: Satirising satire
More than anything, I was curious about the contents of your second link...
You're having trouble keeping up with everything on the thread, too . I didn't mean to make it a link. This site did that automatically when I listed it, but my comment on it was "but that site is down. I just looked."
It doesn't seem to have gone anywhere else, and I can't remember what it said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 1:18 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tony650, posted 02-29-2004 5:17 PM truthlover has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 24 of 28 (89435)
02-29-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by compmage
02-29-2004 6:27 AM


Re: Satirising satire
compmage writes:
Last week sometime a family was discovered living in South Africa who hadn't seen another human being in about 20 years.
Really? Wow, I hadn't heard about that! Thanks for the info, compmage!
compmage writes:
I would have to dig a bit to find an article again, if you really wanted.
Oh don't go to any trouble for me. As I said, I was basically just throwing a random idea on the table. If you have anything you want to add feel free, but please don't go out of your way. I don't want anybody to stress out trying to find links and references just for me.
compmage writes:
I don't know what they believed as far as the shape of the earth goes though.
My thinking was that if you could find a person (or group of people, tribe, etc) who are as isolated from the modern world as ancient man was, they may still believe the same way. I don't know if this is true, mind you, it was just a thought that crossed my mind.
Thanks again for the info, compmage!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by compmage, posted 02-29-2004 6:27 AM compmage has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 25 of 28 (89436)
02-29-2004 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by JonF
02-29-2004 8:47 AM


Re: Satirising satire
Hi JonF!
JonF writes:
Aren't the Urantians hollow-Earthers?
Ah! I think you're right! I don't personally know any but I think I've seen them on the internet.
JonF writes:
I know one for-real Urantian personally (and I want to keep him as a friendly acquaintance, so I'm not going to discuss it with him ... I couldn't hide my opinions).
Yes, I understand. In my case, I am absolutely neurotic about hurting people and generally try to avoid disagreements, when possible.
That's why I usually don't post very much here. I'm just not made of strong enough stuff to get involved in some of the debates I've seen, and I would worry too much about who I'd offended.
I felt more or less "safe" posting in this thread because I very much doubted that anyone reading would actually take the flat-earth view seriously...*looks around nervously*...so I knew it was unlikely that I would offend anyone, or start any arguments.
Anyway, back on topic (kind of)...I'll go out on a bit of a limb here and assume that we also have no hollow-earthers reading. Here's a page with images showing the *cough* "opening" at the North Pole, just in case anyone is interested.
Space Images Showing an Opening at North Pole
I found it mildly amusing.
Thanks for the reply, Jon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by JonF, posted 02-29-2004 8:47 AM JonF has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 26 of 28 (89437)
02-29-2004 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by truthlover
02-29-2004 4:23 PM


Re: Satirising satire
truthlover writes:
You're having trouble keeping up with everything on the thread, too . I didn't mean to make it a link. This site did that automatically when I listed it, but my comment on it was "but that site is down. I just looked."
Argh! You're right! *slaps forehead again* I'd guess that I had one of your petit mal seizures, except that in my case, it was more likely a mild dose of brain death.
truthlover writes:
It doesn't seem to have gone anywhere else, and I can't remember what it said.
Don't worry about it, mate. It's not urgent, I was just curious.
Thanks for the reply TL!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by truthlover, posted 02-29-2004 4:23 PM truthlover has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5614 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 27 of 28 (89464)
02-29-2004 8:13 PM


Flat Earth Theory = Creationist Theory?
What the hell is this? what does does have to do with creationism?
I THOUGHT THHE FLAT EARTH THEORY DIDNOT EXIST ANYMORE

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Loudmouth, posted 03-01-2004 12:14 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 28 (89571)
03-01-2004 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Itachi Uchiha
02-29-2004 8:13 PM


quote:
What the hell is this? what does does have to do with creationism?
I THOUGHT THHE FLAT EARTH THEORY DIDNOT EXIST ANYMORE
I was trying to show how an ad hoc hypothesis and appeals to emotion can support almost any position, including flat earth theory. If you look at the OP, there is actually scientific evidence that supports a flat earth, such as refraction making the world look round from an airplain at 36,000 feet. If ad hoc hypotheses can support a flat earth, why should ad hoc hypotheses be used to support creationism? That is the real question. Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory, at least in my judgement, is an ad hoc hypothesis. There is no evidence that the geologic plates galloped across the earth at anywhere near the speed Brown describes. In fact, it is directly contradicted by many pieces of evidence. If anyone wants to reopen a thread about hydroplate theory, feel free, but this topic is more about how people's need to believe in something can cause them to use reasoning that is severely lacking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 02-29-2004 8:13 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
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