|
Author
|
Topic: Choosing a faith
|
Percy
Member Posts: 22953 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 6.9
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
Message 46 of 3828 (897033)
08-28-2022 9:24 AM
|
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
08-28-2022 6:32 AM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes: This is a Faith & Belief Forum. No evidence is required... But GDR keeps bringing up evidence:
GDR writes: I'd suggest that there is considerable evidence... GDR is perfectly within his rights to eschew evidence and instead focus on faith and belief, but he's not. He's put evidence smack in the middle of the table in this thread, even after being reminded that he didn't need to touch on evidence at all. But as a practical matter there's not much interest in discussions that go, "I believe this," and the other person says, "I believe that," and the first person says, "Interesting, tell me more." People disagree about what they believe, and they advance arguments that they think contain evidence. There's no getting away from it. And as soon as you start talking about evidence, those of us who have well defined ideas of what constitutes actual evidence are going to chime in. For instance, Jesus's appearing to more than 500 people at once after his resurrection is often cited as evidence by believers, but these are just words on a page, just like the Book of Mormon is words on a page. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:32 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 12:42 PM | | Percy has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
|
|
|
Message 47 of 3828 (897034)
08-28-2022 11:23 AM
|
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
08-28-2022 6:35 AM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Show us this data of which you speak. How about making an actual damn argument?
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 6:35 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 12:39 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
|
|
|
Message 48 of 3828 (897035)
08-28-2022 12:39 PM
|
Reply to: Message 47 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 11:23 AM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
You get no data over here. It's all about belief. If that's your only method to believe...through data, I pity you. Oh, go back to your armchair.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 11:23 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
|
|
|
Message 49 of 3828 (897036)
08-28-2022 12:40 PM
|
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
08-27-2022 1:59 PM
|
|
Disconnect between post and title
I do not see what your OP has to do with Choosing a Faith. Very few people choose their faith. They are indoctrinated into them as children. The data on this is irrefutable. But if you do not want to talk about the premise of your title, ignore away.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 1:59 PM | | GDR has not replied |
|
Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
|
|
|
Message 50 of 3828 (897037)
08-28-2022 12:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
08-28-2022 9:24 AM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Percy writes: And as soon as you start talking about evidence, those of us who have well-defined ideas of what constitutes actual evidence are going to chime in. For instance, Jesus's appearing to more than 500 people at once after his resurrection is often cited as evidence by believers, but these are just words on a page, just like the Book of Mormon is words on a page. If we can't use words, what do you propose we use? Rocks? Or numbers?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 9:24 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 166 by Percy, posted 09-01-2022 10:19 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
|
|
|
Message 51 of 3828 (897038)
08-28-2022 12:45 PM
|
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
08-28-2022 12:39 PM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Well good for you. I have no idea what you are talking about by data. Since you brought it up, it is incumbent on you to explain what you mean. You can make the claim that there is data and then say you do not have to present it because this is a faith discussion. That is against forum policy, but also proves what inconsiderate, insincere and untrustworthy participant you are.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 12:39 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:20 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
|
Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
|
|
|
Message 52 of 3828 (897041)
08-28-2022 1:20 PM
|
Reply to: Message 51 by Theodoric
08-28-2022 12:45 PM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Actually, I did google Pew Research and found confirmation of what you said.
Pew Research-Apr 27, 2009 writes: More than four in 10 American adults are no longer members of the religion they were brought up in, while about one in 10 changed religion, then went back to the one they left, the study found... Pew Research 2015 writes: like the 2007 Religious Landscape Study, the new survey shows a remarkable degree of churn in the U.S. religious landscape. If Protestantism is treated as a single religious group, then fully 34% of American adults currently have a religious identity different from the one in which they were raised, which is up six percentage points since 2007. If the three major Protestant traditions (evangelical Protestantism, mainline Protestantism and historically black Protestantism) are analyzed as separate categories, then the share of Americans who have switched religions rises to 42%.16 And these figures do not include an estimate of the number of “reverts” (people who leave their childhood religion before returning to it later in life). If the survey had measured this category, the estimates of the number of people who have switched religions would be higher still.(...)Nearly one-in-five American adults (18%) were raised in a religion and are now unaffiliated, compared with just 4% who have moved in the other direction. In other words, for every person who has left the unaffiliated and now identifies with a religious group more than four people have joined the ranks of the religious “nones.”(...)Fewer than one-in-ten adults (9.2%) say they were raised as religious “nones.” And nearly half of those who were raised unaffiliated (4.3% of all U.S. adults) now identify with a religion. But fully 18% of American adults were raised in a religious tradition and now describe themselves as unaffiliated. IIRC, most of you (the EvC Peanut Gallery) were raised as Christians or Catholics.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 12:45 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:25 PM | | Phat has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 6.5
|
(2)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 53 of 3828 (897042)
08-28-2022 1:25 PM
|
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
08-28-2022 1:20 PM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Christians or Catholics?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:20 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:36 PM | | Tangle has replied |
|
Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
|
|
|
Message 54 of 3828 (897044)
08-28-2022 1:36 PM
|
Reply to: Message 53 by Tangle
08-28-2022 1:25 PM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
I draw a mild distinction between the two, but am referring to Evangelicals vs Traditionalists. Evangelicals are by and large more emotionally driven. Catholics are more ritualistic and traditional. And as an ex-Catholic, you know you never saw anyone falling out at the altar or speaking in tongues during mass.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:25 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:50 PM | | Phat has replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 6.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 55 of 3828 (897046)
08-28-2022 1:50 PM
|
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2022 1:36 PM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Phat writes: I draw a mild distinction between the two, but am referring to Evangelicals vs Traditionalists. Evangelicals are by and large more emotionally driven. Catholics are more ritualistic and traditional. And as an ex-Catholic, you know you never saw anyone falling out at the altar or speaking in tongues during mass. Your bigotry is showing - you made a distinction between Christians and Catholics. All are Christians. "Not real Christians" I guess.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 1:36 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:08 PM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-29-2022 1:17 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
|
Phat
Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.2
|
|
|
Message 56 of 3828 (897048)
08-28-2022 2:08 PM
|
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
08-28-2022 1:50 PM
|
|
Catholics and Protestants
Tangle writes: Your bigotry is showing - you made a distinction between Christians and Catholics. All are Christians. "Not real Christians" I guess. I know Catholics who would argue that Protestants are not real Christians because they are not Catholic. And I know Protestants (chiefly charismatics) who would argue that Catholics are not "real" Christians because they simply followed traditions and never actually "got saved". I don't claim to be able to judge anyone either way. Being raised traditional United Methodist and later freely converting to evangelical/charismatic, I likely do have a bias in favor of similar folks. My views have changed from when I first joined the Charismaniacs.  I now prefer to trust God and pray to Him individually rather than as part of a group. And from what I've gone on record saying around here, I have a lot of repenting and introspection on my plate!
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 1:50 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 57 by Tangle, posted 08-28-2022 3:48 PM | | Phat has not replied | | | Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2022 4:28 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
|
Tangle
Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 6.5
|
(2)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 57 of 3828 (897050)
08-28-2022 3:48 PM
|
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
08-28-2022 2:08 PM
|
|
Re: Catholics and Protestants
Phat writes: I know Catholics who would argue that Protestants are not real Christians because they are not Catholic.
I'm sure you do, they're as bigoted as you are. Not a particular Christian attitude is it?
And I know Protestants (chiefly charismatics) who would argue that Catholics are not "real" Christians because they simply followed traditions and never actually "got saved". ditto above.
I don't claim to be able to judge anyone either way.
You do it automatically.
Being raised traditional United Methodist and later freely converting to evangelical/charismatic, I likely do have a bias in favor of similar folks.
My views have changed from when I first joined the Charismaniacs. I now prefer to trust God and pray to Him individually rather than as part of a group. And from what I've gone on record saying around here, I have a lot of repenting and introspection on my plate! You have no idea how mad all that sounds. But anyway, Christians are Christians if they self-identify as such.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:08 PM | | Phat has not replied |
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 6.1
|
|
|
Message 58 of 3828 (897051)
08-28-2022 4:28 PM
|
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
08-28-2022 2:08 PM
|
|
Re: Catholics and Protestants
Doesn't matter how you feel. If a person identifies as Christian they are Christian. No matter what you biases and prejudices are.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Phat, posted 08-28-2022 2:08 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
|
GDR
Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 3.8
|
|
|
Message 59 of 3828 (897052)
08-28-2022 4:36 PM
|
Reply to: Message 45 by Percy
08-28-2022 8:56 AM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
Percy writes: You might be heading down the same path that led you to abandon EvC in the first place. Will we soon see a claim that your evidence satisfies different criteria than those of science but that it is just as valid anyway? If so, this will expose you to the kind of treatment you object to.
The anthropic principle is a product of science and mathematical research. The fact that our universe is so finely tuned as a requirement for our existence is evidence. Science then proposes the multi-verse. That proposal is no more scientific than God did it.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Percy, posted 08-28-2022 8:56 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2022 5:02 PM | | GDR has replied | | | Message 74 by Percy, posted 08-29-2022 2:01 PM | | GDR has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17919 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 6.6
|
|
|
Message 60 of 3828 (897053)
08-28-2022 5:02 PM
|
Reply to: Message 59 by GDR
08-28-2022 4:36 PM
|
|
Re: Welcome Back GDR
quote:
The anthropic principle is a product of science and mathematical research.
The Weak Anthropic Principle certainly is not. It’s an observation and one that is obviously true - the fact that we exist means that it must be possible for us to exist,
quote:
Science then proposes the multi-verse. That proposal is no more scientific than God did it.
This is also false. Proposing more of something known to exist would be more scientific than inventing a completely ad hoc creator. But it’s better than that - the multiverse is actually a consequence of some physical theories - which have yet to be confirmed - but even so it is a long way from being purely ad hoc,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 4:36 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by GDR, posted 08-28-2022 5:35 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
™ Version 4.2