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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 662 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
God Himself said so in Genesis. We have become like Him (Them). We have grown up.
In other words, we no longer even need God since we ourselves know what to do, right? Phat writes:
Like you?
But what of men who call good evil and evil good? Phat writes:
I guess so. They have access to critical thinking just like the rest of us. Whose fault is it if they don't use it? Is it their own fault they got things twisted?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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God Himself said so in Genesis. We have become like Him (Them). We have grown up. Which is why we can look at the atrocities that God commanded or did himself in the Old Testament and condemn them and himas the atrocities and atrocious monster that they so clearly are. IOW, we have grown up and we know better now. Of course God was created by Man and given the characteristics and faults of Man -- ever notice how convenient it is that God always hates the same people that his followers hate? That horrible early god then got set in cement through writing, so that we whose sense of morality has matured since then can look back in horror of how we used to be.
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ringo Member (Idle past 662 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What could be more obvious? That's the standard we apply to humans, isn't it? We don't sell toys that are labelled, "May cause serious injury or death." We eliminate the evil threats beforehand. You seem to think that if God were worth His salt, He would have eliminated any evil threats beforehand. Why should God be held to a lower standard?
Phat writes:
That's just a bullshit excuse to blame ourselves for the bad things while giving God the credit for the good things.
This would not allow for free will. Phat writes:
God or no God, we ARE free to do whatever we want and we ARE responsible for the consequences.
You all want to be free to do whatever it is that you want to do. Phat writes:
And they're wrong, as usual. We're under our own law and our own standard.
Apologists would argue that you were thus lawless, not wanting to be under any law or standard. Phat writes:
Who's asking Him to be responsible? By all means, tell Him to stay the Hell away. You may counter by saying that you yourselves make your own standard. In which case God is not responsible if you in fact get yourselves in a jam."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
ringo writes: You unbelievers (or non-believers) still don't get it. Of course humans should use common sense and not be mindless zombies awaiting scriptural confirmation for a given challenge. You, however, don't even know how to invent a God. You have concluded that you don't need one or that science proves there are none. That's the standard we apply to humans, isn't it? We don't sell toys that are labeled, "May cause serious injury or death." We eliminate the evil threats beforehand. Why should God be held to a lower standard? A Creator of all seen and unseen, as depicted in scripture, is not simply some magic hand from the sky that wrote everything. God interacts and has interacted with humans since day one (for humans, anyway) Sez me.
ringo writes: You say that now, but what if you were unable to be able to change your mind? Would you be happy with that? Who's asking Him to be responsible? By all means, tell Him to stay the Hell away."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Percy Member Posts: 22934 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Please get some help.
--Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
ringo writes: You would rather blame Him (or Conservative Followers) for the bad things and give you and your fellow humans credit for the good things! In fact, most liberal humanists blame and will blame the followers for the coming bad things which I predict will happen. That's just a bullshit excuse to blame ourselves for the bad things while giving God the credit for the good things. I don't know why I even try with you. He made you a skeptic, so go give away spare change and live your life as best as you can. I'll try my best to emulate your behavior in that way while being careful not to poison my mind with your conclusions regarding God's existence!Edited by Phat, : added sentence "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
You seem to think im some mental case or that my diabetes is out of control. My sugars have been better in the last two months and as of this morning, are 116...within normal range. My A1C is dropping as we speak. Not sure what kind of help you think I need!
But thanks for caring. I would emulate that for any of you...even jar and Theodoric! "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
dwise1 writes: Tell that to Mr.Putin and the Russian "special military operation". This is why we can look at the atrocities that God commanded or did himself in the Old Testament and condemn them and himas the atrocities and atrocious monster that they so clearly are. IOW, we have grown up and we know better now. They collectively have no supernatural belief and it hardly makes them any better. I hear they are now buying weapons from N.Korea and Iran."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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nwr Member Posts: 6484 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 8.6 |
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God. I'll remind you that many unbelievers were once Christians. So yes, they do know how to invent a God. They have been there and done that. The difference is that they now realize that this foolish.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God. You have concluded that you don't need one or that science proves there are none. Oh, Phat, please. We reached those conclusions because we do see how gods are invented, used, abused. We don't just sit in a room making up excuses to piss you off, Phat. There are real actual logical demonstrable reasons we reject the very idea of your gods.Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6076 Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
What you just did is called Whataboutism, a form of "appeal to hyprocrisy" (Tu quoque ("You too")):
quote: No matter how hard you try to divert our attention to other blood-soaked monsters like Putin, that does not make God as depicted in the Bible any less blood-soaked nor any less of a monster. For some appreciation of the difference in scale between how monstrous God is compared to Putin, consider how as they learn ever more of the sheer volume of government documents, hundreds of which are very clearly marked as being highly classified (based on my 40 years of training and professional experience with handling classified, they are so very clearly marked that nobody could possibly miss it), that Trump has stolen, his Republican defenders immediately turn to "But what about Hillary's emails?!?!?!?!!" because a couple excerpts of classified info found their way onto her server from others plus none of it was marked as classified. So trying to exonerate Trump for his flagrantly deliberate acts of massive stealing and mishandling of government documents by pointing out Hillary's email server -- be sure to note the vast difference in scale and in deliberate actions -- would be like your trying to exonerate the God of the Bible's long history of being a blood soaked monster by pointing out that Putin is also a bad guy. Nobody's going to buy that one!
They collectively have no supernatural belief and it hardly makes them any better. Your information is decades out of date. Christianity has had a revival in Russia since the Soviet Union ended. Orthodoxy, of course, but fundamentalism has also established itself with many ties with American fundamentalist churches and organizations (such as the Institute for Creation Research). And Russia is presenting itself as being the defender of the white race, morality, and even Christianity (Orthodoxy, of course). Moscow is back as the Third Rome, though with the label of Russian World, an Orthodox concept developed in the 1990's which exalts the primacy of Russian language and culture. Putin is using Russian World to promote the recreation of the Russian Empire. That includes making Ukraine completely Russian by destroying Ukrainian culture, identity, and language in order to replace them with Russian culture, identity, and language. Hardly indistinguishable from a religious crusade. For that matter, Putin is himself a Christian, or at least was. He was baptized, though he did it in secret to keep his father for knowing about it. And despite Putin not now being seen as being very religious, many others in the Russian government are (I've seen Medvedev being presented as an example). Time for you to get up to date.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 6.1 |
Vlad the Destroyer and most Russians are Russian Orthodox. Vlad goes to church on most holy days and has a very close relationship with the Patriarch. He and the Russian people are christians.
Edited by Theodoric, : Typo What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
He and the Russian people are christians. You telling my, like republicans, the russian people are orks, too? I have no reason to do this other than the mood strikes me. No relation to any discussion past, present, future. ** [joke] M R ducks.M R not ducks. O S M R. C M wings? L I B! M R ducks. [/joke] Ok I need dinner.Edited by AZPaul3, : **Apologies to admin Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
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Phat Member Posts: 18633 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.1 |
You confuse me. Is that some sort of code that only anti-theistic liberals understand?
Add By Edit: OK I looked it up. now I understand this lame duck humor "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 662 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ringo writes:
That has nothing to do with what I said. I was asking why God shouldn't be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to. You unbelievers (or non-believers) still don't get it. Of course humans should use common sense and not be mindless zombies awaiting scriptural confirmation for a given challenge. Stop usung me as a launch pad for your rants and try to reply honestly.
Phat writes:
Sure we do. We watch you doing it every day.
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God. Phat writes:
Yup. We have also concluded that you don't HAVE one, whether you "need" one or not.
You have concluded that you don't need one... Phat writes:
Stop lying. Nobody here has told you that.
... or that science proves there are none. Phat writes:
That question doesn't make any sense. You say that now, but what if you were unable to be able to change your mind? Would you be happy with that?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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