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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1388 of 1444 (885998)
05-01-2021 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1387 by Phat
05-01-2021 1:16 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
... who are you or I to judge God as being evil....
We have had the knowledge of good and evil since Adam and Eve. Case closed.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1387 by Phat, posted 05-01-2021 1:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1391 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 2:59 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1408 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1400 of 1444 (886015)
05-02-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1391 by Phat
05-02-2021 2:59 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
Who put the tree in the Garden? Who planted it?
What has that got to do with it? The point is that Adam and Eve did have the knowledge of good and evil and they supposedly passed it down to us - so we are well qualified to judge whether God is good or evil.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1391 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 2:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1403 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 11:04 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1407 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1405 of 1444 (886021)
05-02-2021 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1403 by Phat
05-02-2021 11:04 AM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
So if the snake were simply a plot device and all evil is within us and God is complete rather than just "good", The only real charge that we have from Him is to choose this day whom we will serve.
Right?
I don't know what any of that has to do with what I said but you're missing the biggest "if" of all - if He even exists.
But again, you're missing the real point: It doesn't matter whether God is good or evil. We can't do anything about that. What matters is the good and/or evil that WE do.
Of course, obeying evil commands from God would be evil.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1403 by Phat, posted 05-02-2021 11:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 1411 of 1444 (897394)
09-04-2022 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1408 by Phat
09-02-2022 3:36 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
In other words, we no longer even need God since we ourselves know what to do, right?
God Himself said so in Genesis. We have become like Him (Them). We have grown up.
Phat writes:
But what of men who call good evil and evil good?
Like you?
Phat writes:
Is it their own fault they got things twisted?
I guess so. They have access to critical thinking just like the rest of us. Whose fault is it if they don't use it?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1408 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:36 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1412 by dwise1, posted 09-04-2022 1:04 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(4)
Message 1413 of 1444 (897404)
09-04-2022 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1407 by Phat
09-02-2022 3:32 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
You seem to think that if God were worth His salt, He would have eliminated any evil threats beforehand.
What could be more obvious? That's the standard we apply to humans, isn't it? We don't sell toys that are labelled, "May cause serious injury or death." We eliminate the evil threats beforehand.
Why should God be held to a lower standard?
Phat writes:
This would not allow for free will.
That's just a bullshit excuse to blame ourselves for the bad things while giving God the credit for the good things.
Phat writes:
You all want to be free to do whatever it is that you want to do.
God or no God, we ARE free to do whatever we want and we ARE responsible for the consequences.
Phat writes:
Apologists would argue that you were thus lawless, not wanting to be under any law or standard.
And they're wrong, as usual. We're under our own law and our own standard.
Phat writes:
You may counter by saying that you yourselves make your own standard. In which case God is not responsible if you in fact get yourselves in a jam.
Who's asking Him to be responsible? By all means, tell Him to stay the Hell away.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1407 by Phat, posted 09-02-2022 3:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1414 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:13 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1416 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1425 of 1444 (897529)
09-07-2022 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1414 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:13 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
ringo writes:
You unbelievers (or non-believers) still don't get it. Of course humans should use common sense and not be mindless zombies awaiting scriptural confirmation for a given challenge.
That has nothing to do with what I said. I was asking why God shouldn't be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to.
Stop usung me as a launch pad for your rants and try to reply honestly.
Phat writes:
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God.
Sure we do. We watch you doing it every day.
Phat writes:
You have concluded that you don't need one...
Yup. We have also concluded that you don't HAVE one, whether you "need" one or not.
Phat writes:
... or that science proves there are none.
Stop lying. Nobody here has told you that.
Phat writes:
You say that now, but what if you were unable to be able to change your mind? Would you be happy with that?
That question doesn't make any sense.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1414 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1426 of 1444 (897532)
09-07-2022 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1416 by Phat
09-06-2022 2:19 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
You would rather blame Him (or Conservative Followers) for the bad things and give you and your fellow humans credit for the good things!
I don't see why we shouldn't take credit for the good things we have accomplished.
Phat writes:
In fact, most liberal humanists blame and will blame the followers for the coming bad things which I predict will happen.
More than that, we will try to prevent them.
Phat writes:
He made you a skeptic...
Thinking made me a skeptic.
And you keep saying "skeptic" as if it was a bad thing. Why do you do that?
Phat writes:
... so go give away spare change and live your life as best as you can.
There you go again, mocking what Jesus said.
Phat writes:
I'll try my best to emulate your behavior in that way while being careful not to poison my mind with your conclusions regarding God's existence!
That's an odd take on "by their fruits ye shall know them". In your addled mind, are my fruits something to be emulated or something poisonous?

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1416 by Phat, posted 09-06-2022 2:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1427 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 1:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1428 of 1444 (897579)
09-08-2022 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1427 by Phat
09-07-2022 1:42 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
Your fruits are fine.
Then why are you worried about "poisoning your mind" with my conclusions?
Phat writes:
I refuse to enable alcoholics and perpetual panhandlers.
It isn't about enabling. That's just a copout, an excuse to do nothing.
They're going to be enabled, if not by you then by somebody else.
It's about dignity. If somebody asks me for help, who am I to decide whether he really, really, really needs help? I don't buy that 12-step bullshit about how "you can't do it yourself". On the contrary, they HAVE to do it themselves. No matter what help and encouragement they get, they still have to make the final decision themselves. So I give them the dignity of allowing them to make the decision with no interference from me.
Phat writes:
Are you in favor of the Federal Reserve knowing the net worth of every private citizen?
I don't know (or care) about the Federal Reserve but the IRS should definitely know the net worth of every citizen. (I don't know why you say "private" citizen.) How else are they going to know if the citizen is paying his fair share? Your far-right handlers don't want the IRS to prevent them from stealing from YOU, but you keep enabling them.
Phat writes:
If you say yes, it will confirm your ignorance.
How so? (I'm going to break my own rule and predict that you won't answer.)
Phat writes:
Some of your methods will cause more harm than good.
Collecting income tax is not "my method". It's society's method. So go ahead and give sone actual examples of "my methods" and how they do more harm than good.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1427 by Phat, posted 09-07-2022 1:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1429 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 12:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1432 of 1444 (897587)
09-08-2022 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1429 by Phat
09-08-2022 12:02 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
The IRS should not be authoritarians. They already have the information we provide them at our jobs. They have no right to know what I have buried in my backyard!
Sure they do. That's how they got Al Capone.
Phat writes:
If Jesus cant make me give it all up, the government sure won't!
As I have told you before, if/when the government comes to collect, you WILL pay up. Stop talking like a one of those militia idiots. (Is that a cache of guns in your back yard?)
Phat writes:
And by the way, I'm fully legal. I just don't like nosy IRS agents.
You're such a slave to right-wing propaganda. If you're legal, the IRS are on your side, trying to collect from the rich bastards, like Trump, who are NOT legal.
Phat writes:
As an example, if someone owns gold....
In your posts, I always stop reading at "gold". You know nothing about it.
Phat writes:
The liberals are obsessed with this whole "fair share" thing. Who the hell are you to tell me what's fair?
Who are YOU decide all by your little self what's fair? It's up to society as a whole.
Phat writes:
I'll pay what I'm required to pay and not what *YOU* think I should pay. Period.
I think you should pay what you're required to pay. Period. When have I ever given you reason to think otherwise?
Phat writes:
Your idea of Utopia...
I have no idea of Utopia.
Phat writes:
... suggests a police state where everyone is forced to distribute their income.
Just for once, for a change, would you THINK before you blather such nonsense?
First, where have I EVER suggested anything resembling a police state?
Second, EVERY nation "forces" its citizens to distribute their income. Ever hear of taxes?
Third, YOU are the beneficiary of much of that distribution. Ever go to a public school? Ever drive on a public road? Ever hear of a Fire Department or a Police Department or an Army or a Navy or an Air Force? In your sheer bone-headed, stupidity, do you want to get rid of all of those?
Phat writes:
Something even Jesus wouldn't approve of.
Well, the Jews had public schules and the Romans had public roads - and Jesus told the people to pay their taxes, so clearly He DID approve. Pull your head out of your ass.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1429 by Phat, posted 09-08-2022 12:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1433 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 3:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 529 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1434 of 1444 (902362)
11-22-2022 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1433 by Phat
11-21-2022 3:31 PM


Re: Sheep & Goat Behavior and Gods Foreknowledge
Phat writes:
The issue is that you think that an elected government has every right to collect what it needs no matter what the amount for the benefit of the meth addict under the bridge as well as the hard-working middle-class guy that appreciates libraries, armies, and fire departments
Why is that even an issue? Yes, the government has every right (and duty) to collect what it needs for libraries, armies and fire departments.
We can't just let the meth addicts burn; the fire might spread next door to the hard-working middle-class guy. We can't just let your buddy Putin invade the country because it will effect the hard-working middle-class guy along with the meth addict.
We're all in the same boat.
Phat writes:
The guy under the bridge trashes public restrooms, has no respect for himself or others, and feeds his addiction from guys like you that give him a few dollars when he looks all forlorn with a sign.
I have explained it to you many, many, many times before. The meth dealer shops at your store. The spare change I give circulates. The dollar i give to the meth addict that he gives to his dealer, that he gives to your store is no different from the dollar that YOU spend on too much sugar.
Phat writes:
My point is that you can't simply legislate financial help and expect things to change.
Sure we can. We know that things DO change. My favorite aunt's husband died, leaving her with five small children. She went on welfare for a while and eventually went back to work. The children all grew up to be productive members of society - and so did their children.
How can you even suggest that that legislated financial help didn't change anything?
Phat writes:
You (we) need more than that.
But you're not suggesting more. You're suggesting less.
Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? They use garbage trucks to scoop up "undesirables". Is that the "more" you have in mind?
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
As I have told you before, if/when the government comes to collect, you WILL pay up.
I like how you sound so authoritarian when it suits you.
What's "authoritarian" about it? I'm just predicting that your bluster won't come to anything. They'll give you the bill and you'll pay. (Unless you hide your money away. But you said you'd never do anything illegal.)
Phat writes:
You will find a civil war instead.
I don't know what insane corner of your mind that came from.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1433 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 3:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1435 by Theodoric, posted 11-22-2022 11:49 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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