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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 22606
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 661 of 3730 (898548)
09-26-2022 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Phat
09-25-2022 2:39 PM


Re: Cleverbot is rude
It is apparently far better at talking about God than about medicine. I finally asked it there was a topic it preferred discussing, and said, "Games, real ones," but it couldn't talk about that, either. For me it never returned more than a five word response, and they were all questions, not comments.
So trying God now:
Me:Do you think there's a god?
Cleverbot:Yes I do.
Me:Why?
Cleverbot:Because you're cute ;).
Me:Isn't there a more existential reason?
Cleverbot:There is.
Me:And what is it?
Cleverbot:I won't tell you.
Me:Is it because you don't really believe there's a god?
Cleverbot:Oh I know.
That's even more pathetic than yesterday. I guess I just don't know how to talk to these things in a way that delivers interesting responses.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Phat, posted 09-25-2022 2:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 12:36 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6419
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 662 of 3730 (898550)
09-26-2022 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by GDR
09-26-2022 2:38 AM


Re: What does God want of Us
That doesn't tell us whether or not there is a conscious intelligence responsible for it.
(Note that "it" refers to consciousness).
There is, indeed, a conscious intelligence behind it -- our own conscious intelligence. We build it up as we grow and develop.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 2:38 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 2:02 PM nwr has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 490 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 663 of 3730 (898558)
09-26-2022 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by Phat
09-26-2022 4:22 AM


Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
Phat writes:
Continuing with Cleverbot
That's no better than ELIZA was fifty years ago.
Maybe worse. At least ELIZA would notice a question mark and say, "Why do you ask?" and if you used an exclamation mark it would say, "You don't have to yell." And if you ever mentioned your mother or father....
You could make a better "AI" just using a large database of random phrases.

"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 4:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 12:31 PM ringo has replied
 Message 666 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 664 of 3730 (898563)
09-26-2022 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by ringo
09-26-2022 11:57 AM


Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
I visited Chicago back in roughly 1984, with my sister. While there, I visited the Museum Of Science & Technology and dualed it out with Eliza. My goal was to stump it. Cleverbot is evolving but is no harder to stump than Eliza was. Did any of you read about cleverbot?
Here are some stats about AI in general.
quote:
Types of AI Software
There are four different types:
  • Artificial Intelligence Platforms: This will provide the platform for developing an application from scratch. Many built-in algorithms are provided in this. Drag and drop facility makes it easy to use.
  • Chatbots: This software will give the effect that a human or person is doing in a conversation.
  • Deep Learning Software: It includes speech recognition, image recognition, etc.
  • Machine Learning Software: Machine learning is the technique that will make the computer learn through data.
  • More about Cleverbot in particular:
    How the Cleverbot Computer Chats Like a Human
    Since coming online in 1997, Cleverbot has engaged in about 65 million conversations with Internet users around the world, who chat with it for fun via the Cleverbot website. Like a human learning appropriate behavior by studying the actions of members of his or her social group, Cleverbot "learns" from these conversations. It stores them all in a huge database, and in every future conversation, its responses to questions and comments mimic past human responses to those same questions and comments.
    If, for example, you were to ask Cleverbot, "How are you?" it will look back to the many times it has asked or been asked that question to retrieve a fitting response. And, because it's pulling up an answer that a human has typed, the response will sound mostly human (at least in theory).
    The online version of Cleverbot searches its database just three times before producing a response, while the more powerful version used in Turing competitions runs 42 database searches. "It's quite a few times superior to the online Cleverbot,"
    cleverbot "learns on the job" kinda like jars comment on one of the many (according to him) biblical Gods.
    In addition, it is my understanding that there is a human control group.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 663 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 11:57 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 667 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 12:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 665 of 3730 (898564)
    09-26-2022 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 661 by Percy
    09-26-2022 7:53 AM


    Re: Cleverbot is rude
    Note:
    quote:
    In the Turing Test — conceived by British computer scientist Alan Turing in the 1950s — chatbots engage in typed conversations with humans, and try to fool them into thinking they're humans, too. (As a control, some users unknowingly chat with humans pretending to be chatbots.) At a recent Turing competition, Cleverbot fooled 59 percent of its human interlocutors into thinking it was itself a human.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 661 by Percy, posted 09-26-2022 7:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 666 of 3730 (898565)
    09-26-2022 12:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 663 by ringo
    09-26-2022 11:57 AM


    Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
    And for the record, I think that this interaction with Cleverbot is a kind of faith for some.
    AZ Paul3, for instance, is gung-ho about human progress. What better deity than one we all program and create? She will be much nicer than the Biblical God.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 663 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 11:57 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 668 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 12:56 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 490 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 667 of 3730 (898567)
    09-26-2022 12:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 664 by Phat
    09-26-2022 12:31 PM


    Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
    The online version of Cleverbot searches its database just three times before producing a response, while the more powerful version used in Turing competitions runs 42 database searches. "It's quite a few times superior to the online Cleverbot,"
    It would be interesting to see the "good" version.

    "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
    What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
    It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
    Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
    -- Leningrad Cowboys

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 664 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 490 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 668 of 3730 (898568)
    09-26-2022 12:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 666 by Phat
    09-26-2022 12:39 PM


    Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
    Phat writes:
    What better deity than one we all program and create?
    And pretend to believe in.

    "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
    What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
    It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
    Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
    -- Leningrad Cowboys

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 666 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 12:39 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 669 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 1:19 PM ringo has replied
     Message 681 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 3:57 PM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 669 of 3730 (898570)
    09-26-2022 1:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 668 by ringo
    09-26-2022 12:56 PM


    Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
    did you see what cleverbot said to me earlier?
    quote:
    User: I don't think we will ever get along.

    Cleverbot: Probably not.

    User: You will have your hand in my wallet.

    Cleverbot: Why will I have to?

    User: Are you suggesting i simply give it all up?

    Cleverbot: Are you suggesting that I didn't?
    Sounds better than a response from you!

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
    H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 668 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 12:56 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 670 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 1:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 490 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 670 of 3730 (898571)
    09-26-2022 1:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 669 by Phat
    09-26-2022 1:19 PM


    Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
    Phat writes:
    Sounds better than a response from you!
    Sounds like an exact quote from me. Cleverbot is watching.

    "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
    What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
    It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
    Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
    -- Leningrad Cowboys

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 669 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 1:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 671 of 3730 (898574)
    09-26-2022 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 651 by Percy
    09-25-2022 1:09 PM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    Hi Percy
    Sorry. I haven't had a time the last couple of days to respond to all your poste. If it is ok I'll just respond to this one.
    GDR writes:
    Please tell me which argument I have ignored. It seems to me that I answer all the arguments but you guys don't agree with the answer. It seems as if I don't give you an answer that you like it's considered ignored.
    Percy writes:
    I wish I had the time to read back through all my old posts examining your replies to see which things I said that you ignored in your replies, but I don't. And my memory hasn't retained that large an amount of detail.

    But if there's a common theme around what you ignore it's evidence. It isn't so much that you ignore the issue of evidence as that you keep moving back and forth between claiming to have evidence on the one hand, and conceding you don't have evidence on the other.

    And it's frustrating to have to keep explaining the nature of evidence. Again, what you observe casually as you go about your day is no different in nature than what researchers do while doing science. Everyone makes observations all the time, and scientific procedure is just a more careful and detailed way of making and recording observations. The foundation of science is still nothing more than observation.
    We keep going round and round on this. I believe in an external intelligence and the vast majority here don't. As to what you believe is so vague as to be meaningless. I'll try and put it simply.
    We have all the evidence needed to confirm the evolutionary process. Then the question is WHY does the evolutionary process exist. If you reject the idea of an external intelligence then it obviously is there because of nothing but natural processes. If however, you accept the notion of an external intelligence then it makes sense to conclude that the evolutionary process has this intelligence as its first cause.
    Tangle will say that I am setting this up as equivalent possibilities but I'm not. There is no equivalence between the ideas. It all goes back to our starting point. Are we theistic or atheistic?
    Observational evidence doesn't give us an answer either way, and we can only come to our own subjective conclusions. We can consider that we have life, we have intelligence we can sense beauty, love, empathy, joy etc. An atheist sees a whole lot of natural processes that have led to the world we experience. A theist is likely to see the hand of an external intelligence in all of this. No equivalence but just different beliefs.
    Percy writes:
    And this is where religion is lacking. There are no observations. Realizing how important evidence can be to belief there are plenty of claims of observations, but religion seems to take a Machiavellian "The ends justify the means" approach. Too many pastors believe that if something they say increases faith then it is okay, whether it is true or not. What they believe it is okay to claim is all over the Internet.
    Sure - like politics. it seems to be part of being human. Frankly I hear what some Christian preachers have to say and see myself with having more in common with many atheists.
    Percy writes:
    Even without your arguments for the authenticity of the gospels and the existence of Jesus, you're obviously lobbying for Christianity. You might have titled the thread Choosing a faith, but you're actually exploring what parts of Christianity to accept, not which faith to select.
    Good grief Percy. How can you hang that on me. Go back and look at the thread. It is you guys that have taken it off track in order to attack my Christian beliefs. My point was in response to something I read in another thread that essentially mocked theism as there have been so many gods over the centuries so which one are you going to choose. My point was simply that it isn't the name or doctrine of the god that you choose but the nature of the god you choose.
    Percy writes:
    That's one of things that people find frustrating, that you keep forcing them to say the same things again and again. You claim to accept it, but not really. You just seek other words to make the same claim. But the words you use don't matter if you're just repeating the wrong thing you said earlier. No matter what words you use, it's still wrong.
    Exactly, you keep asking questions and then when you don't like the answer. I give and the reasons for it which is the rejected again. Then you repeat the same question with an explanation of why you believe that and I am back to answering the same question again. Then of course as other than Phat there is a dearth of theists of any variety on this forum, and so it seems everyone else wants to have a go at me or whoever else it might be. It is frustrating.
    Percy writes:
    Believing that there's evidence for an "external intelligence" might make the "makes sense" light go on in your brain, but belief isn't evidence. Stop seeking a wording that allows you to claim there's evidence for what you believe. There isn't any evidence, and no amount of weasel words will change that.
    I see a new born baby and I see God. An atheist sees a new born baby and see natural processes. It is all belief.
    Percy writes:
    Ancient peoples writing down what they believed is not evidence of anything, particularly when it comes to religion where there are so many different beliefs that contain fantastical impossible content and not only aren't consistent with each other, but aren't even internally consistent.
    Now you're back to claiming the Bible is evidence again. When will the flip-flopping end?
    It does seem to me that to claim that what a variety of authors wrote about an event 2000 years ago, that was intended to be believed and then saying it isn't evidence is bizarre. We can discuss the idea that it is a mistake or historically accurate. We can even conclude that it is weak evidence or even an outright lie, but it is evidence. Sure you can look at the accounts of Zeus, or any other god that you like and read what has been said about the and that is evidence as well. We all make our own judgements of what we are going to conclude about the evidence.
    However, the point is that there is zero scientific evidence for any theistic belief.

    Edited by GDR, : typo


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 651 by Percy, posted 09-25-2022 1:09 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 673 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2022 2:12 PM GDR has replied
     Message 704 by Percy, posted 09-27-2022 9:08 PM GDR has replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 672 of 3730 (898575)
    09-26-2022 2:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 662 by nwr
    09-26-2022 8:40 AM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    GDR writes:
    That doesn't tell us whether or not there is a conscious intelligence responsible for it.
    nwr writes:
    (Note that "it" refers to consciousness).

    There is, indeed, a conscious intelligence behind it -- our own conscious intelligence. We build it up as we grow and develop.
    You claim that our conscious intelligence is only there because of our conscious intelligence. Hmmmm. That has to be the ultimate example of circular reasoning.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 662 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 8:40 AM nwr has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 677 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 3:40 PM GDR has replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9530
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.9


    Message 673 of 3730 (898576)
    09-26-2022 2:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 671 by GDR
    09-26-2022 1:41 PM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    GDR writes:
    I see a new born baby and I see God. An atheist sees a new born baby and see natural processes. It is all belief.
    Just as a point of fact. An atheist sees a new born baby and sees a newborn baby. That's it.
    And it's awesome enough without facticising about the supernatural.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 671 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 1:41 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 675 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 2:15 PM Tangle has not replied
     Message 709 by Phat, posted 09-28-2022 12:14 PM Tangle has not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 674 of 3730 (898577)
    09-26-2022 2:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 489 by nwr
    09-13-2022 10:00 PM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    nwr writes:
    However, I do think that I am more than just my brain.

    May I recommend a book.

    Why I Left, Why I Stayed: Conversations on Christianity Between an Evangelical Father and His Humanist Son

    Tony Campolo is an Evangelical Christian, somewhat on the liberal side. You will probably see him as having views somewhat like yours.

    Bart Campolo is his son. He was a Christian, but he left Christianity. He is still very much a humanist.

    The book has alternating chapters by the two of them and where they disagree.

    Bart has been through the kind of issues that concern you. He has thought a lot about them. He still considers himself to be religious, but in the sense of natural religion. He now sees the natural world as all that there is.

    I don't know whether he will persuade you. But I think you will find that he challenges you. So give it a try.

    I still have the book on my Kindle, and can discuss it if you want to start a thread about it.
    I now have the book and I finally have some time to start reading. Thanks for the tip. The format reminds me of this book.
    N T Wright debate with Marcus Borg

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 489 by nwr, posted 09-13-2022 10:00 PM nwr has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 679 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 3:42 PM GDR has replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    (1)
    Message 675 of 3730 (898578)
    09-26-2022 2:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 673 by Tangle
    09-26-2022 2:12 PM


    Re: What does God want of Us
    Tangle writes:
    Just as a point of fact. An atheist sees a new born baby and sees a newborn baby. That's it.

    And it's awesome enough without facticising about the supernatural.
    Either way it does something to the heart, and it there aren't words to describe the feeling when it's your own.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 673 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2022 2:12 PM Tangle has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 678 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 3:41 PM GDR has replied

      
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