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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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Phat
Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 676 of 3847 (898581)
09-26-2022 3:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by GDR
08-27-2022 4:01 PM
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All You Need Is Love?
GDR writes: Essentially Jesus did believe in revolution but only in non-violent revolution. His message was that it wasn't the Romans that were the problem, but the enemy was really the evil in the world, and that the weapon against evil is love. You would have made a good hippie. Would you have taken drugs with AZPaul3 and ringo in the park? The Beatles would have been playing....singing "all you need is love".... 
GDR writes: Ultimately, if we spend the time thinking about such things, we can choose between atheism, deism, or theism. I agree that we can be agnostic and just say that we can’t know but that simply means that it could be any of the three. I eliminate atheism strictly on the fact that conscious sentient life arising mindlessly from basic particles requires more faith than I can muster. If evolution is used as evidence for atheism, then that is a faith claim and not scientific. I simply look upon it as an incredibly beautiful and well-thought-out way of developing life. That leaves me with cosmic intelligence. I think that the peanut gallery believes that your train left the tracks right when you said:
If evolution is used as evidence for atheism, then that is a faith claim and not scientific. They go with the evidence. Objective evidence period. They would argue that no faith is involved...simply data. My current theory is that "they" get the same rush out of data and scientific progress as believers get out of an emotional church song, quiet prayer in the woods, or a cute baby.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by GDR, posted 08-27-2022 4:01 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 682 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 5:35 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6488 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 677 of 3847 (898583)
09-26-2022 3:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 672 by GDR
09-26-2022 2:02 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
That has to be the ultimate example of circular reasoning. Not really. It is boot strapping.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 672 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 2:02 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 680 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 3:54 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 683 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 5:37 PM | | nwr has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 678 of 3847 (898584)
09-26-2022 3:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 675 by GDR
09-26-2022 2:15 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Either way it does something to the heart, and it there aren't words to describe the feeling when it's your own.  Did you and your wife recently have a baby? If I were married and had one, I would much rather God bless him/her than a nod from cleverbot. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 675 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 2:15 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 684 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 5:40 PM | | Phat has replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6488 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 679 of 3847 (898585)
09-26-2022 3:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 674 by GDR
09-26-2022 2:12 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I now have the book and I finally have some time to start reading. Great. Let us know how that goes.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 674 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 2:12 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 686 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 6:27 PM | | nwr has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 680 of 3847 (898586)
09-26-2022 3:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 677 by nwr
09-26-2022 3:40 PM
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What Does Cleverbot want of us?
It is boot strapping. In looking up the word, I couldn't help but wonder if that ties in with programming cleverbot?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 677 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 3:40 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 705 by Percy, posted 09-27-2022 9:22 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 681 of 3847 (898587)
09-26-2022 3:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 668 by ringo
09-26-2022 12:56 PM
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Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
Phat writes: What better deity than one we all program and create?
ringo writes: And pretend to believe in. Why would we only pretend? Essentially we would be believing in ourselves, which is kinda what you all think should happen anyway. Edited by Phat, : added comment
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 668 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 12:56 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 689 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 9:46 PM | | Phat has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005
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Message 682 of 3847 (898591)
09-26-2022 5:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 676 by Phat
09-26-2022 3:37 PM
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Re: All You Need Is Love?
Phat writes: You would have made a good hippie. Would you have taken drugs with AZPaul3 and ringo in the park? The Beatles would have been playing....singing "all you need is love"....
Not really. During that time I was in the Canadian Air Force, (RCAF), busily keep the world safe from those nasty commies in my beloved C130. Woodstock was a long way from the world I lived in.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 676 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 3:37 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005
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Message 683 of 3847 (898592)
09-26-2022 5:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 677 by nwr
09-26-2022 3:40 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I think that now you are boot strapping your circular reasoning.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 677 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 3:40 PM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 685 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 6:00 PM | | GDR has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005
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Message 684 of 3847 (898593)
09-26-2022 5:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 678 by Phat
09-26-2022 3:41 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Phat writes: Did you and your wife recently have a baby? Boy, did that train leave the station a long time ago. My kid's kids are having kids. I am now officially an ancestor.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 678 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 3:41 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 692 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 10:33 AM | | GDR has replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6488 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 685 of 3847 (898594)
09-26-2022 6:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 683 by GDR
09-26-2022 5:37 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I think that now you are boot strapping your circular reasoning. Have you ever booted a computer? It starts with very limited capabilities, until it loads enough code to get fully going. A newborn child starts with very limited abilities, and has to use those to learn how to deal with the world. Much of our consciousness comes from what we learn.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 683 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 5:37 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 687 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 6:31 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005
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Message 686 of 3847 (898596)
09-26-2022 6:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 679 by nwr
09-26-2022 3:42 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
nwr writes: Great. Let us know how that goes. I have now finished the first two entries by each of them. I actually relate more to Bart than I do to Tony. My criticism of Tony is that he is to focused on the Bible and not focused enough on Jesus. He isn't nearly as bad as Faith, but I use to tell her that she was a Biblian as opposed to being a Christian. I think that both of them are concerned too much with personal salvation. Sure that's important but Christianity is calling us to love in the here and now, and to make a positive contribution in this life. My problem with Bart is that in my view he has thrown out the baby with the bath water. I see the problem being that they both are two dependent on their understanding of how the Bible should be understood. They both seem to hold to a somewhat water-downed version of literalism. In Bart's case when he doesn't see his prayers answered the way that he thinks that God should answer them, and rejects the obvious things in the Bible that I also mostly reject, he rejects the whole package. (He rejects the resurrection which I don't.) However both of them appear from what they say to be living lives that are consistent with what Christ calls us to by sacrificially loving others, much more so than, in my experience, the vast majority, (including myself), of Christians do. Bart's life of living with the underprivileged sure puts me to shame. I would ask that this discussion stay with nwr and myself as I assume that we are the only two who have read the book. (I am about 1/2 way through and will return to it after I walk the do.)
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 679 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 3:42 PM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 688 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 9:09 PM | | GDR has replied | | | Message 691 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 10:21 AM | | GDR has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005
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Message 687 of 3847 (898597)
09-26-2022 6:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 685 by nwr
09-26-2022 6:00 PM
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I get it. I was just trying to have a little fun with Re: What does God want of Us
I get it. I was just trying to have a little fun with this statement of yours. "There is, indeed, a conscious intelligence behind it -- our own conscious intelligence."
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 685 by nwr, posted 09-26-2022 6:00 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6488 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 688 of 3847 (898599)
09-26-2022 9:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 686 by GDR
09-26-2022 6:27 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I have now finished the first two entries by each of them. I actually relate more to Bart than I do to Tony. My criticism of Tony is that he is to focused on the Bible and not focused enough on Jesus. That's interesting. I also preferred Bart's view. But that's to be expected, because I left Christianity.
However both of them appear from what they say to be living lives that are consistent with what Christ calls us to by sacrificially loving others, much more so than, in my experience, the vast majority, (including myself), of Christians do. Yes, I agree with that. Bart's view was, I think, very much influenced by his bicycle accident.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 686 by GDR, posted 09-26-2022 6:27 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 693 by GDR, posted 09-27-2022 11:05 AM | | nwr has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 689 of 3847 (898600)
09-26-2022 9:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 681 by Phat
09-26-2022 3:57 PM
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Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
Phat writes: Why would we only pretend?
Because we know it isn't true.
Phat writes: Essentially we would be believing in ourselves....
You seem to believe in your own ability to create a God better than the ones in the Bible.
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 681 by Phat, posted 09-26-2022 3:57 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 690 by Phat, posted 09-27-2022 10:11 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18694 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 690 of 3847 (898615)
09-27-2022 10:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 689 by ringo
09-26-2022 9:46 PM
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Re: Developing A Relationship With Cleverbot
Im moving all future Cleverbot stuff over to Phat Unplugged. Sometimes I like talking to Cleverbot better than humans. Well, at least so far. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 689 by ringo, posted 09-26-2022 9:46 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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